Episode 400
Gender Bias, Ego and Success: Why Men Appear More Confident in the Boardroom
EP 400 - Is confidence the real reason men succeed more in business - or are women holding themselves back?
Entrepreneur and Dragons’ Den success story Rachel Watkyn OBE joins us to share her unfiltered take on gender, ego, and the hidden dynamics behind success.
From male “peacocking” and the confidence gap to the barriers facing female founders, she challenges what we think we know about business, identity, and leadership.
Rachel opens up about her personal journey through childhood trauma, serious illness, and tackles big cultural questions - from the rise of modern gender ideology to the impact of dating apps, hookup culture, and why loneliness is becoming a silent epidemic among Gen Z.
*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*
Spotify Video Chapters:
00:00 BWB with Rachel Watkyn OBE
01:34 Meet Rachel: A Journey of Resilience
02:43 Quickfire - Get to Know Rachel
05:16 Rachel's New Venture: Tackling Loneliness
00:00 The Reality of Loneliness in Modern Society
12:44 Personal Stories and Overcoming Adversity
17:06 Gender Bias in Venture Capital Funding
29:18 Changing Gender Roles and Societal Norms
31:42 A Family's Complex History
32:16 Unraveling Relationships and Secrets
33:33 Impact of Social Shame
34:37 Cultural Differences in Expression
35:29 A Troubling Incident
36:29 Childhood Challenges and Resilience
37:03 Managing Stress and Wellbeing
39:18 The Importance of Conversations
43:18 Navigating Modern Challenges
46:36 Business Insights and Advice
49:40 Business OR Bullshit Quiz!
58:49 Wrap Up
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Transcript
From having an auntie who used to be her stepdad.
Speaker A:Think about that for a second.
Speaker A:To becoming the UK's most successful female Dragon's Den entrepreneur.
Speaker A:Rachel Watkins story is one of outrageous resilience, dry British wit, and a new plan to tackle the global loneliness epidemic with tech.
Speaker A:You've never heard a founder's journey quite like this.
Speaker A:Hello and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.
Speaker A:I am Andy Uri and today we are delighted to be joined by Rachel Watkin, OBE.
Speaker A:Rachel Watkin OBE is the powerhouse behind Tiny Box Company, the UK's largest sustainable packaging business and the most successful female led venture to ever come out of Dragon's Den.
Speaker A:From a turbulent childhood and chronic illness to building a 10 million pound company with Peter Jones and Theo Fafitis, Rachel's story is one of grit, resilience and purpose.
Speaker A:A passionate advocate for ethical businesses and women in leadership, Rachel has been honored with an OBE for her work in sustainability and exp.
Speaker A:Rachel, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker B:Hello.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me.
Speaker B:So kind of you to paint the room.
Speaker B:My tiny box.
Speaker B:Blue, is it?
Speaker A:Yeah, this exact color.
Speaker A:This sort of slightly aquamarine kind of blue.
Speaker A:Well, we'd like to keep our guests happy.
Speaker A:Quick far round.
Speaker A:We're just going to get to know you a little bit better.
Speaker A:You should know the answer to this, doctor.
Speaker A:Producers queuing some music.
Speaker A:And we're off.
Speaker A:What was your first job, Rachel?
Speaker B:Strawberry picking.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:Age seven to eight.
Speaker B:I had tiny hands and I could earn really good money per punnett.
Speaker A:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:We do make the best strawberries too.
Speaker A:And what was your worst job?
Speaker B:Sticking rubber ends on car aerials.
Speaker B:And I got paid a third of a penny per.
Speaker B:Car aerial.
Speaker B:Rubber end, third of a penny.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Favorite subject at school?
Speaker B:Sports.
Speaker B:Anything outside.
Speaker A:Okay, nice.
Speaker A:What's your special skill?
Speaker B:My special skill is definitely I analyze everything.
Speaker B:That's also a weakness.
Speaker B:But I analyze everything.
Speaker A:Isn't that like a curse almost?
Speaker B:It is, yeah.
Speaker A:What did you want to be when you grew up?
Speaker B:I wanted to either be a sports teacher or have businesses.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:What did your parents want you to be?
Speaker B:Oh, they were all about status, so it was about just being successful.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And what's your.
Speaker A:Do you do karaoke?
Speaker B:No, not if I can avoid it.
Speaker A:If you had to, what would be your go to karaoke song?
Speaker B:Well, I've recently taken up singing lessons, so I don't howl quite so badly.
Speaker B:And it would be probably.
Speaker A:Probably.
Speaker B:Share believe do you believe?
Speaker A:I now need to hear Share do you believe?
Speaker A:Do you, do you believe?
Speaker A:No, I can't think do you believe?
Speaker A:Believe?
Speaker A:I don't know this song.
Speaker B:You don't know it?
Speaker A:What year is it?
Speaker A:Do you know this song, Dean?
Speaker B:Apparently you're 108, so you must know it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, this one.
Speaker A:Do you believe it sounds like it's auto tune, but it wouldn't be with Cher, probably.
Speaker A:Anyway, hilarious.
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker A:Love it.
Speaker A:Office dogs.
Speaker A:Business or bullshit?
Speaker B:Both.
Speaker A:Both?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:If you've got a grumpy dog that chews everything, it's bullshit.
Speaker B:If they're lovely and they're nice to people, then it's business.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Love it.
Speaker A:And what's your guilty pleasure?
Speaker B:Oh, my guilty pleasure.
Speaker A:We used to say, what's your vice?
Speaker A:But we never get the real answer out of people.
Speaker B:I don't think my guilty pleasures are cuddles.
Speaker B:Tea and chocolate.
Speaker A:It's quite a good combination all at the same time.
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker A:Tell us straight, what are you up to at the moment or.
Speaker A:Rachel.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker B:Oh, it's all right.
Speaker B:Everybody calls me a Rach at the moment.
Speaker B:I am.
Speaker B:I was gonna say starting a new venture.
Speaker B:It's not new anymore.
Speaker B:It's a current venture which is to help tackle loneliness worldwide.
Speaker A:Okay, how are we gonna do that?
Speaker B:Well, it's huge.
Speaker B:It's a new app with some hardware, let's say.
Speaker B: yeah, we launch in September: Speaker B:Going out for VC funding at the moment.
Speaker B:We start next week looking for a mere 4 mil to start it.
Speaker B:And yeah, bigger than anything I've ever done.
Speaker A:Okay, let's ask this question.
Speaker A:Why loneliness?
Speaker B:Because it's an absolute epidemic.
Speaker B:Like in America.
Speaker B:San Mateo is the capital of Facebook, YouTube, you know, the HQ.
Speaker B:And yet last year the government there announced national emergency across the state of loneliness.
Speaker B:46% of adults, severe loneliness.
Speaker B:In the UK, one in three people has not had a meaningful conversation in the last week.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Is that always been the case?
Speaker A:We just not really known about it?
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker A:Suffered in silence before.
Speaker A: e weren't many surveys in the: Speaker B:But no, but since we have been doing surveys, yeah, it's just escalated and escalated, especially post Covid.
Speaker B:So Gen Z are the most anxious generation ever known and they can't talk to people.
Speaker B:So this is all about connecting in real life.
Speaker A:Yeah, because what I mean, loneliness is not social media, it's not connecting in video games or.
Speaker B:So when you use social media and chat to people online, it actually doesn't induce the same feel good chemicals that you get with real life interaction.
Speaker B:So it doesn't generate dopamine.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Like it does when you're talking to people in real life and we know that the social media situation is just making people more anxious and not helping them, it's having the opposite effect.
Speaker A:I remember reading an article years ago that about if a man and a woman, a couple move locations so, you know, move from wherever, Sussex to Scotland, the lady, I mean, obviously these are generalizations, but the lady would keep up her relationships with the people that she, she would ring them and she would get.
Speaker A:It's like, you know, I mean, you get called sexist trying to make any generalization, but they do.
Speaker A:You know, ladies would get dopamine from conversation and talking with people they know on a telephone.
Speaker A:So when they move location, the.
Speaker A:The lady would continue ringing her old friends and she'd get value out of that feel good about that.
Speaker A:The man would be.
Speaker A:And he would just have to find new someone to go to the pub with and then he'd be happy again.
Speaker B:You know, so you do get some good feel factor, but it's not at the same level, not chemically.
Speaker B:And Gen Z don't know how to read body language.
Speaker B:They don't know when it's okay to approach someone when it's not okay.
Speaker A:God, how strange.
Speaker B:When I was young, you know, if you fancied a boy and everybody knew everybody else around the town or whatever, so you tell your friends who would then tell their friends who would tell the boy, and if the boy was interested, he'd come and ask you out.
Speaker B:They were the rules.
Speaker A:Wish that happened to me locked up in a single sex boy boarding school, you know, anyway.
Speaker A:But yeah, no, that sounds like a system.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And, and everybody knew the unwritten rules.
Speaker B:If he was wearing a wedding ring, you.
Speaker B:You didn't approach.
Speaker B:But now with people having so many different partners and people have multiple partners, do they?
Speaker B:Apparently Gen Z do.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Doesn't that key into the same thing?
Speaker A:They're not, they're not deep relationships.
Speaker A:They're quite superficial the relationship.
Speaker A:So, you know, I'm chatting to them online, we turn up, we have sex.
Speaker A:It's a sort of, you know, superficial rather than this is a real like bonding dopamine kind of experience.
Speaker B:But they want the meet cutes.
Speaker A:What's a meet cute?
Speaker B:A meet cute is when you meet somebody at.
Speaker B:Or your eyes meet romantically in a.
Speaker A:Coffee shop or Is that how they describe it?
Speaker A:This is what they're craving, These sort.
Speaker B:Of, you know, meet cutes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Girls were illegal at school I went to, so I sort of missed all this.
Speaker A:But yeah, that's Having people always wanted the meet cute.
Speaker A:It's a sort of.
Speaker A:I'm not saying what you're saying is not.
Speaker A:Not true.
Speaker A:I'm sure it is.
Speaker A:Tr.
Speaker A:But for the point of sort of discussing where.
Speaker A:Where the issue is for them, it's like people have always wanted, like to connect eyes in the coffee shop.
Speaker A:And British people run away.
Speaker A:I mean, like, you know, I remember an American, My friend married an American, she moved here, and I remember she couldn't understand it.
Speaker A:She would be like, that guy keeps looking at me.
Speaker A:And then every time I look at him back, he looks away.
Speaker A:And I was like, yeah, he fancies you.
Speaker A:Well, why does he.
Speaker A:Why does he look away?
Speaker A:It's really confusing, you know.
Speaker A:And I was like, yeah, because British people, we can't.
Speaker A:Can't handle it, you know, I mean, it's.
Speaker A:It was such a shock for me to learn, you know, my wife was telling me that when she was young, she would go to the bar, she dress up and go out with her friends at the bar, hoping a man would talk to them.
Speaker A:And I was like, what did you just say?
Speaker A:I was like, when I was in my 20s and I saw women in the bar who.
Speaker A:I thought the last thing they wanted to do is to have some bloke talk to them and they were on their own.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:You're telling me they did want somebody?
Speaker B:Of course we did.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:I just.
Speaker A:I wish someone told me that, you know, I know that sounds ridiculous, but I just assume the last.
Speaker A:You know, they're trying to keep their space.
Speaker A:So the young generation are feeling very.
Speaker B:Isolated, effectively, they're feeling really isolated, misunderstood, and incredibly anxious because of all the comparisons on social media.
Speaker B:So the idea of our project is called Indiki.
Speaker A:Indiki, How'd you spell that?
Speaker B:I N D I K I.
Speaker A:What does that mean?
Speaker A:Something sounds like sort of Native American or something.
Speaker A:Indici.
Speaker B:It's actually from an Azerbaijani word, and it means to be in the present, to be in the now.
Speaker B:So, yeah, it's to help people indicate what they're looking for and to give people the courage to talk to each other.
Speaker A:Is this resonate with you?
Speaker A:Particularly as a thing.
Speaker A:Loneliness.
Speaker B: So back in: Speaker B:And then dating apps kind of took a big.
Speaker B:A big boom.
Speaker B:And I was focusing on tinybox.
Speaker B:I put it on the back burner, but it was actually my best friend.
Speaker B:She lost her husband 12 years ago.
Speaker B:He died very young.
Speaker B:And she called me up last about 18 months ago and said, rach, the dating apps are effing shit.
Speaker B:You're an entrepreneur.
Speaker B:Sort it out.
Speaker B:Bye.
Speaker A:Really brilliant.
Speaker B: totypes that I'd made back in: Speaker A:So it's actually underneath it, it's dating, effectively.
Speaker A:Because what is.
Speaker A:No, that's not gonna be the aim of what to make money up.
Speaker A:Oh, they just gave you ideas and then you ended up looking at loneliness.
Speaker B:Yeah, because Gen Z, it's not just about dating.
Speaker B:They want meaningful connections, they want meaningful friends.
Speaker B:And their idea of dating has changed.
Speaker B:It's more about making friends.
Speaker B:And if it leads onto something else, then great.
Speaker B:But if it doesn't, then we can be friends.
Speaker B:Because they're so much more fluid as well.
Speaker B:You know, one day they might want a boy, one might day they might want a girl.
Speaker A:Shocking.
Speaker B:But that's the reality of it.
Speaker A:Yeah, but what's driving you through all of this?
Speaker A:You sound like you've been through a lot.
Speaker A:I mean, we had in your intro, you, you know, got childish challenges.
Speaker A:Cancer.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What keeps you going?
Speaker B:So I lost my sister about three years ago to cancer.
Speaker B:Four years ago.
Speaker A:Me too.
Speaker B:Did you?
Speaker A:Two years ago.
Speaker B:And it sounds really corny, but her dying saved my life because I went for a scan just as a hunch after her getting a terminal diagnosis, paid to have a full body scan and found that I'd got a 2 centimeter tumor in my lung.
Speaker A:What did she die of?
Speaker B:Of lung cancer.
Speaker A:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:So mine was really early.
Speaker B:We've got genetic disorder in our family.
Speaker B:Yeah, mine was early.
Speaker B:Guy's hospital removed my bottom, the bottom third of my right hand lung and I went on carried on living where she died.
Speaker B:So I kind of thought, you've just got to make every day count.
Speaker B:And I kind of made a promise then that I would make every day count.
Speaker B:And I've had so many health issues.
Speaker B:What's the option?
Speaker B:You know, do you just.
Speaker A:You've had health issues going back in time, have you?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So you, you have a choice.
Speaker B:You either roll over and let it take over or you say, right, I'm gonna change the world in my own way.
Speaker A:Obviously your sister's situation changed you, but this must have been going back longer than that because you've been doing sort of challenging things.
Speaker A:I mean, I imagine going on Dragon Den's a bit of a nightmare, but, you know, was it like it's a challenge or whatever?
Speaker B:I never applied.
Speaker A:You never Applied?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:No, it was my business partner at the time.
Speaker B:He was a.
Speaker B:He was a well known broadcaster and he.
Speaker B:Yeah, he hijacked a radio station, broadcast lots of stuff that he shouldn't have done.
Speaker A:What, literally?
Speaker A:Hijacked station?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which radio station?
Speaker B:I think it might have been Atlantic, I can't remember.
Speaker A:Well, he just like went in there with a gun or a Filofax or, you know, a stick or something and.
Speaker B:Well, no, he worked there, but he.
Speaker B:Yeah, he was off his head on drugs and alcohol, went in and started broadcasting live in the middle of the night.
Speaker A:And I love this man already.
Speaker A:Is he still around?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:I'll pick him up.
Speaker B:He's now, his stage name is Robin Banks and he's now the producer, the breakfast producer for Radio Oman.
Speaker B:There's no drugs and alcohol there or limited.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So he sort of said, oh, I'd like to come and work with you, Rach.
Speaker B:Big mistake.
Speaker B:If somebody asks you randomly if they want to come and work with you.
Speaker A:The answer is he's got problems taking over radio stations, doing too many drugs.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Anyway, he started working with me, realized very early on that he missed the lifestyle, he missed working in radio.
Speaker B:Didn't know how to get out of it without letting me down.
Speaker B:So applied to Dragons Den and didn't tell me.
Speaker A:No way.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So they called and said, oh, we'd like to have you on the show.
Speaker B:And he was in the office that day just saying, black it, make it up, blog it.
Speaker B:So I did.
Speaker A:Did you what?
Speaker A:You blagged it?
Speaker A:You made up the business?
Speaker A:Was the business existing?
Speaker B:The biggest business did exist, but I was saying, oh, yeah, we need more stock, more premises.
Speaker A:Oh, really?
Speaker A:But you actually went through with the investment, did you?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's unusual because normally that, you know, all the stories I always hear is like, yeah, I mean, I accepted it, but, you know, the terms were ridiculous, you know, Was it.
Speaker A:I mean, are you allowed?
Speaker A:Was it good?
Speaker A:Was this bad?
Speaker A:I mean, what, so you skewed 60,000 pound from Peter Jones and Theo Perfitus?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:For 40%.
Speaker B:Would I do it again?
Speaker B:I'm a little bit wiser now.
Speaker A:Must have been good for business, all that press sales go up.
Speaker B:Do you know, because I had such bad imposter syndrome, I didn't do most of the press, so obviously did Dragon's Den, but as soon as it was aired, any opportunities for press or whatever, I turned down.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You won't find any stories of me, any interviews, nothing.
Speaker B:Because I just wanted to get on and run the business.
Speaker A:Was it a story at the time?
Speaker A:This sort of thing about it being still the largest amount a woman has raised on the show?
Speaker A:Was that.
Speaker A:Was that what people wanted to talk about at the time or was less of a story?
Speaker B:It wasn't about the amount of money raised on the tv.
Speaker B:It was the fact that afterwards I'm supposedly the most successful that's come out of it.
Speaker A:Have you got strong opinions on that or what?
Speaker A:You know, it's this sort of recurring, I guess, issue of sort of women raising money and you know, very various groups, you know, struggling to raise money relative to their white male counterparts.
Speaker B:Like yours truly, women do really do struggle.
Speaker B:The latest stats were that female led businesses, venture capital funding, 1.8 pence in the pound, the other 98.2 pence going to mail.
Speaker A:What do you think's behind the stats?
Speaker A:Because I always find stats quite damaging.
Speaker A:Cause it's sort of the immediate.
Speaker A:There's a similar one for black people and for me that it's like the immediate what?
Speaker A:People are racist.
Speaker A:It's like, well, you know, I don't think London investors are sitting there saying, I won't invest someone cause they're black.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:I just don't.
Speaker A:But maybe they are.
Speaker A:Maybe there's some doing that.
Speaker A:And I'm really sorry if you feel very strongly about it, but I think there's more to it than that.
Speaker B:I totally agree, but a friend of ours was trying to get VC funding for a very sound business and she was sending out her deck, she was getting rejected left, right and center.
Speaker A:Changed it to a man's name.
Speaker B:She got a couple of meetings.
Speaker B:One of the VCs in the meeting said, not happening.
Speaker A:Your childbearing age, that makes women incredibly angry.
Speaker A:It makes a lot of people very angry.
Speaker A:But you know, from a completely.
Speaker A:Having two kids and watching what that does to your life, you know, whether you be a man or a woman, I mean even it's more obvious maybe as a woman, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:But even as a man, you'd be like, well, you're about to have kids, how's that going to work?
Speaker A:You know, it's going to.
Speaker B:But men don't get out of that.
Speaker A:No, they don't.
Speaker A:I guess, I guess the assumption.
Speaker A:But yeah, you know, I think what I struggle with is that you're not allowed to talk about it.
Speaker A:I mean, that example would inflame people.
Speaker A:Like I said, when you say it, people are they.
Speaker A:And it's a bit like, well, someone's looking at an investment if, you know, if someone's like, I don't know, I mean, it's a consideration is that I don't know what wants to say.
Speaker A:It's like the elephant in the room.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:It's sort of, I think, I think it would probably make more sense if you were pregnant and I, we had someone on the show who was pregnant and raised money and sort of, you know, went through all of that experience.
Speaker A:But if you knew it's very like, this person's gonna have this huge event in six months, you'd probably be logical.
Speaker B:And say like, well, but that doesn't make women incapacitated.
Speaker B:No, you can still raise children, have assistance in raising the family.
Speaker B:How do they know that?
Speaker B:Her husband may have been quite happy to be a stay at home dad.
Speaker B:Yeah, they don't know that you are.
Speaker A:Incapacitated if you're gonna be the primary caregiver.
Speaker A:But you don't have to be the primary caregiver.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:And that, and maybe that's the assumption you could get a nanny or whatever.
Speaker A:I mean, my dear Sissy died.
Speaker A:But she was always very passionate about this.
Speaker A:That her problem though was that she said she wasn't keen, you know, she had kids and stuff.
Speaker A:But the narrative that you can do it all, she's like, you can do it all, but not all at the same time.
Speaker A:So there is a narrative which is like, you can have kids, you can run at bc, CEO of a business, you can do that.
Speaker A:And she would always say if you, you know, it was easier for her to say it as a woman than me as a man.
Speaker A:But if you scratch beneath the surface, the person who's this dynamic CEO will have loads of childcare somehow.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:And it's sort of.
Speaker A:But the image will be, I'm, you know, I'm doing all the childcare and I'm doing the thing.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm going down a horrible rabbit hole here that I'll just get shouted at, I'm sure by people, but is in, you know, just trying to get to the bottom of what it is.
Speaker A:So someone's sitting there.
Speaker A:Yeah, you're right.
Speaker A:They don't have to do the childcare.
Speaker A:And it's something you're not really allowed to talk about, you know.
Speaker A:But if I think, if we're honest, I think you pick on the right one.
Speaker A:I think those stats are affected by kids.
Speaker B:But if, if we were having honest, open conversations, then why not just ask the woman rather than making a statement.
Speaker B:Your childbearing age.
Speaker B:She was 27.
Speaker B:What's your exit strategy?
Speaker B:I aim to exit the business in five years and then have children.
Speaker B:Problem solved.
Speaker A:Yeah, but are we afraid to have the conversation?
Speaker A:I mean, I feel awkward having it right now and we're sitting chatting about it.
Speaker A:I mean, 27 is very young.
Speaker A:I would say, don't fucking have kids.
Speaker A:I was like, give it at least 10 years.
Speaker A:Like, you know.
Speaker B:But they were open enough to say, you are childbearing age, so therefore you're too risky.
Speaker B:So she then sent the deck from her husband's LinkedIn account and was inundated.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, I go on the basic theory that at the moment, the money is still mostly controlled by men and people invest in what they understand, and they're going to understand men like them more than a woman like that.
Speaker A:See, really, you just need more women investors because it's much harder for, you know.
Speaker A:Well, it's a much easier conversation than a man saying that, than a woman saying, I'm a mother, too.
Speaker A:I know you're pregnant.
Speaker A:How are you gonna.
Speaker A:What's the plan?
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:But it's a whole combination of unconscious bias.
Speaker B:And then on top of that, a lot of the time, women don't have enough confidence to ask.
Speaker A:To ask what?
Speaker B:To ask for VC funding.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, Brits have a problem, full stop.
Speaker A:But I can imagine women even more.
Speaker B:But if we're not asking for it, then obviously our stats are always going to be lower.
Speaker A:As someone who see you, you're saying, you know, you suffer from imposter syndrome and didn't do the PR and stuff, but it sounds like you do.
Speaker A:You do have a fearlessness to go and do these things.
Speaker A:Is that fair?
Speaker B:I do now.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Like, now you're like, I'm doing this new business, I'm gonna go ask for money.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:What would be your advice to.
Speaker A:To a man or woman?
Speaker A:I guess.
Speaker A:But you know who you have the confidence to go ask.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:What else would you tell them?
Speaker B:Have your facts and do your research.
Speaker B:Because there's no excuse for not doing research now.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:It's at our fingertips.
Speaker A:Chat.
Speaker A:GPT.
Speaker B:Chat gbt.
Speaker A:You know, Dragon's Den being Dragon's Den.
Speaker A:Is that the same reasons?
Speaker A:I mean, we're on national tv.
Speaker A:They're not going to be saying you're a bit childbearing age, you know.
Speaker A:Why do you think women are not succeeding on Dragon's Den?
Speaker B:I think they're ex.
Speaker B:They're succeeding more, but Again, probably less women ask.
Speaker B:So I run, I run business clinics all the time.
Speaker B:And women don't dream big.
Speaker B:As a general rule.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:They tend to think small and don't like to think bigger.
Speaker B:Almost like they're not entitled to.
Speaker A:Well, it's a.
Speaker A:There's a national problem with it.
Speaker A:You only need to spend a bit of time in America and you come back.
Speaker A:But I agree, I think related to hormones again, you know, men are always trying to attract a mate, aren't they?
Speaker A:We peacock effectively.
Speaker A:You know, we're trying to show off, you know, got a lot of ego, testosterone, sort of makes you very sort of like, ah, you know, I've got to impress.
Speaker A:I've got to impress the ladies.
Speaker A:So there's definitely something in that that we will think more risky.
Speaker B:But also by men doing that, women then automatically assume that the man knows more because he's peacocking.
Speaker A:And it's not my experience.
Speaker A:I think most of it gets seen through by women.
Speaker A:But other men might believe they know more.
Speaker B:No, in the business world, women think that men know more because they're, because they are peacocking.
Speaker B:And you kind of think, oh, I mean, the amount of shocking incidents I've had where men have completely talked down to me.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's unreal.
Speaker A:I get talked down to there and I wouldn't regard it as a bit of sexist thing.
Speaker A:I just regard them as.
Speaker A:But you what?
Speaker A:It's the, it's the way, the sort of language, I mean, I, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, what, Maybe some example or something or you feel, okay, so I'm.
Speaker B:At badminton and this guy that I've never met before is asking me what I do.
Speaker B:And I said, oh, I run my own business.
Speaker B:Oh, is that around your kitchen table?
Speaker A:I see what you mean.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Those assumptions.
Speaker B:Yeah, pure assumptions.
Speaker B:And we went to look at a warehouse space where it was a field, an empty field with estate agents.
Speaker B:There's three estate agents.
Speaker B:I go with my husband and our ops manager.
Speaker B:The estate agents stood with their back to me, like literally their back to me, talking to my husband and the ops manager, lead estate agent then asked a question that they couldn't answer.
Speaker B:So husband and ops manager looked at me and the lead estate agent kind of made a joke of it, but turned around, said, and said, I'm sorry, who's in charge here?
Speaker A:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:What's the best way to get our Ghana respect then?
Speaker A:Powerful suits?
Speaker B:No, no.
Speaker A:Giant Filofax.
Speaker B:I don't need it.
Speaker A:You don't need it?
Speaker B:I don't need It.
Speaker A:So, yeah, just don't worry about people acting like that.
Speaker A:I think there's a. I mean, to be honest, when I hear stories like that, I'm like, there's a lot of power and people not knowing who you are.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think in a way there's a huge amount of, you know, being people underestimating you is.
Speaker A:Is a.
Speaker A:Is a great position to come from, isn't it?
Speaker A:You know, so don't bother.
Speaker A:So you want to.
Speaker A:You don't need that respect.
Speaker A:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker B:If.
Speaker B:If they want to think that, that's fine, you know, and so long as I don't get blockages from it on my business journey, then let them think what they want.
Speaker B:But it's taken me a while to get there.
Speaker A:I can really imagine the scene, too, of the sort of men gathering around with the sort of back, back to the lady about, oh, you brought your wife along kind of thing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You look at things change.
Speaker A:Time to change society.
Speaker A:I mean, it's not that long ago.
Speaker A:Like, you know, my dad's in this business.
Speaker A:He's 82.
Speaker A:He remembers the world when it was men ran everything.
Speaker A:You'd have a room of women who were secretaries.
Speaker A:You know, your choice of jobs was secretaries.
Speaker A:Nurse, air hostess.
Speaker A:He was like, there were like four jobs.
Speaker A:And he said, you get some clever secretaries and stuff, because if you're clever and talented now as a woman, I mean, no offense to any secretary, some very clever secretaries out there.
Speaker A:But when there's only three job choices, you know, and you're a NASA scientist, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:You'd end up, you know, working as a secretary.
Speaker B:Oh, that's what I was told when I was at school.
Speaker B:I could be a secretary.
Speaker B:And the army are now taking women.
Speaker A:Really.
Speaker B:That was my.
Speaker A:You would have been a brilliant secretary, Rachel.
Speaker A:One of the best.
Speaker A:One of the best, you know, but how.
Speaker A:You know, all I'm saying is it's changed.
Speaker A:It's not that long, you know.
Speaker A:When, when.
Speaker A:When did it really change?
Speaker A:When did women really.
Speaker A:Well, the World War II changed a lot because suddenly women had jobs and they liked it, and that was the start.
Speaker A:But that world, you know, carried on, I think, for a long, long time.
Speaker A:Probably you'd have to start sort of charting 70s and 80s, you know, it started to sort of be a thing, a conversation.
Speaker B:Yeah, it.
Speaker B:Even in the early 90s, I was working in software, and it was very, very different then to now.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:I mean, the HR director overheard our sales director telling me to wear a short skirt for the presentation the next day, HR director was horrified.
Speaker B:To me, it was just normal.
Speaker B:Normal chat, normal expectation.
Speaker B:Wear a short skirt.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, my only defense to the inequality is that I don't.
Speaker A:I don't have a male friend who's in charge in his home.
Speaker A:All men I know are terrified in their home.
Speaker A:As in, like, they do exactly what their wife says, they never touch anything.
Speaker A:And they're like, I don't know, you know, we've got builders around at the moment.
Speaker A:He was asking me, should I do this, should I do that?
Speaker A:And I was like, you should wait for my wife and you should ask her, because I'm not allowed to make those kind of decisions, you know?
Speaker B:Oh, we have the opposite.
Speaker A:Oh, really?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Steve.
Speaker A:Steve's in charge.
Speaker B:Steve is in charge?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Oh, my God.
Speaker A:So you swap roles, you're in charge of the workplace and he gets to be in charge.
Speaker A:Because what's happened to me now is the women are in charge of the workplace and they're in charge at home.
Speaker A:I'm like, I need to, like, create.
Speaker A:I need to bring back men only clubs just to be in charge somewhere.
Speaker B:No, I mean, Steve was talking to me about boiler things yesterday and repairs to our house and everything.
Speaker B:I'm going blue job.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think the question for all of us is it is changing, I hope.
Speaker A:I mean, it's certainly changing in my world.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:I think the way I'm having to learn, we're all having to learn, what does a mixed decision group look like in terms of diversity of thought, diversity of everything?
Speaker A:You know, that we're not all just blokes from wherever.
Speaker B:And I think that by women wanting more, it has really kind of challenged where men feel that they fit in society.
Speaker B:So it's probably gonna take another 50, 70 years before equity is reached and on both sides.
Speaker A:Meanwhile, as you say, people's sexual preferences are opening up.
Speaker A:People's like, what they do or don't like to do, how they like to dress, you know, I mean, I.
Speaker A:Only yesterday I was driving along and I saw a man, massive burly geezer, massive dress, you know, lipstick and everything.
Speaker A:I mean, it's still.
Speaker A:Now you're like in London, you're like, yeah, good for you.
Speaker A:You wear what you want, but you're still like, Jesus, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Because your mind is still rigged up, though.
Speaker A:Is that a massive burly man wearing a dress and makeup?
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker B: That was my stepfather in: Speaker A:Was it?
Speaker A:Good man.
Speaker A:But I love it, really.
Speaker A:I love it's just when they're like, you know, if they're a thin little man with a sort of.
Speaker A:And you can't quite tell it's.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:But you know, when someone's just like, you know, Barry, and they're just like, you know, just some giant.
Speaker A:Giant.
Speaker A:But, you know, I'm with Eddie Izard on it.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm a libertarian.
Speaker A:Wear what you want, do what you want.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:You know.
Speaker B: my stepfather transitioned in: Speaker A:A transvestite or to a woman.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:Really early.
Speaker B:And that is early.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And we think it was, if not the first one of the first divorce cases of two women in the uk.
Speaker A:So did he do the OP or everything?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Did the whole caboodle.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:And was reintroduced to our lives as Auntie.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:And did.
Speaker A:I did.
Speaker A:Because the first thing they do is hormone injections.
Speaker B:It didn't go well.
Speaker A:Didn't go well, no.
Speaker B:Had quite a lot of stubble, had to shave every day.
Speaker B:Still quite a deep voice.
Speaker B:And you just couldn't get rid of the giant hands.
Speaker A:Conquered the giant.
Speaker B:Nice.
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Speaker A:Business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ori Clark.
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Speaker A:Just search for.
Speaker A:Wow, that's amazing story.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:So that's your stepdad.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, not, not to have to delve into your childhood too much, but these childhood, what, you know, for the sake of people understand, you know, is there.
Speaker A:Is there a chat.
Speaker A:GPT summary of your childhood that's relevant to understanding you?
Speaker A:You know, I mean, you've, you know, that that's interesting in itself, but, you know, shouldn't, shouldn't necessarily be the end of the world.
Speaker A:But you don't have to talk about it.
Speaker B:Oh, no, no, it's fine.
Speaker B:I'm being very open about it because I want to encourage other people that come from weird backgrounds that it doesn't define you.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:So, yeah, very long story short, my mum was married to James and they had two children.
Speaker B:My dad was married to somebody else and had a child.
Speaker B:My parents had an affair.
Speaker B:I was born and my stepfather looked at me and said, straight away, that's not mine, because they're all very dark and this is my natural hair color.
Speaker B:So My mom was expecting a marriage breakdown, but wasn't expecting him to say, well, actually, I only married you to model myself on you because I want to be a woman.
Speaker A:Oh, my God.
Speaker A:What an expected conversational change that is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Is she a woman into men or she's a woman into women?
Speaker B:Well, this is where it gets complicated, we think.
Speaker B:Because I didn't find out a lot of this until they'd all died, but.
Speaker A:I think, oh, they're all gone now.
Speaker B:They're all gone.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Bless them.
Speaker B:But I think that part of the reason James wanted to transition was because he was in love with my dad.
Speaker B:And my dad wasn't gay, but my dad was in love with my mum, who was.
Speaker A:Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Speaker A:So your stepfather, who turned into a woman, was in love with your dad, who had an affair with your mum.
Speaker A:And how did they all know they were best friends or something?
Speaker B:That they all knew each other quite well.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And he was actually in love with your dad and wanted to transition to a woman to attract him.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Menage etoi.
Speaker B:But exactly that.
Speaker B:But instead of it going the way he planned, my dad then married my mum.
Speaker A:Your dad married your mum?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I say he wasn't best pleased about that, I guess.
Speaker B:No, he was, Auntie.
Speaker B:And actually, the three parents, well, I say they raised us.
Speaker B:We got put in a children's home when it was all kicking off.
Speaker A:Did social services just.
Speaker A:Did it just blow their mind, this situation, rather than your parents were being bad parents?
Speaker B:It blew my mum's mind.
Speaker A:Blow my mind.
Speaker A:I mean, what a conversational stopper that is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It destroyed her.
Speaker B:She couldn't look after us.
Speaker A:Do you think there was an element of.
Speaker A:Because back then, it would have been sort of much heavier social shame.
Speaker B:Oh, huge social shame.
Speaker A:Oh, I'm really sad when shame gets involved.
Speaker B:And she had no options because back then, I mean, women couldn't even have a bank account, so she couldn't just leave him.
Speaker B:So you couldn't just leave.
Speaker B:You couldn't just up and leave your husband unless you had somewhere to go.
Speaker A:The thing is, it's back to social conditioning and social shame.
Speaker A:The tribal look like this, man is man, woman is woman.
Speaker A:Don't vary.
Speaker A:You should be ashamed.
Speaker A:You know, the announcement of a child is gay now in London or in the uk, whatever you want to say it, you know, we.
Speaker A:At least, you know, you hear regularly, oh, I think my kid's gay.
Speaker A:And you're not.
Speaker A:Like, what are you gonna do?
Speaker A:And it wasn't like.
Speaker A:It was just about the fact that you would worry that the kid would struggle.
Speaker A:I mean, that was real.
Speaker A:You know, a caring parent would more be like, I'm sure sometimes suffer from such social shame.
Speaker A:They disowned their kids, did terrible things.
Speaker A:But I think a lot of it was like, oh, I don't want you to suffer in life, you know, and you're going to have prejudice coming out your ears.
Speaker B:I think so much of it was social shame.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's terrible social conditioning and social shame, isn't it?
Speaker A:That's what I mean.
Speaker A:We need more.
Speaker A:Barry's walking down the street in dresses and I'm almost at that stage.
Speaker A:In London, you see anything.
Speaker A:Some days you see it actually in America more and more.
Speaker A:If you go to America and you hang out, they're all so wild, you know, if they're into something, they really go for it.
Speaker A:Actually, this is a very interesting.
Speaker A:On our business trip, we had three, four of us, all from Britain, all like, you know, jean shirt, jumper, you know, whatever.
Speaker A:Just like, very conformist.
Speaker A:And we get on the subway or we get on.
Speaker A:You get in some public situation, you could spot the Brits.
Speaker A:We were like.
Speaker A:We looked very, like just living within this quite narrow band in the Americas.
Speaker A:There was a guy dressed completely in fur.
Speaker A:There was another was all orange, like, you know, orange everywhere and, like, people just hanging out.
Speaker B:Was that Trump?
Speaker A:Very good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, but, you know, you see how in America you allowed a much wider concept of who you are and actually, as a British person, it's like, no, we kind of want you to fit in this sort of box.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So there was an accident outside our house.
Speaker B:Somebody got hit by a car.
Speaker B:My mum went to go and help.
Speaker B:The police came round a couple of hours later to get a statement.
Speaker B: clothes and makeup, which in: Speaker B:And I was on the floor.
Speaker B:It was December and I was on the floor with no clothes on and I was blue, so I got.
Speaker A:How were you blue?
Speaker B:Hypothermia.
Speaker A:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:So they weren't really looking after you that great?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:So I got taken straight to hospital and spent about five weeks in hospital.
Speaker A:Hypothermia is cold.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So the social services notes said that I was about to lose my toes and feet through frostbride.
Speaker A:With great respect to your parents who passed, that shows a darker side to this conversation, you know, because it's so intrinsic in us to look after kids.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So from that point, you ended up in care?
Speaker B:Yeah, no, I was eight Months old when it happened.
Speaker A:Oh, right, right.
Speaker A:You were baby, baby, baby.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then at age three and a half, my real mum and my real dad got married and so we got sent to live with.
Speaker B:With them, with auntie living around the corner and.
Speaker B:Yeah, terrible mistake.
Speaker A:That was bad.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, really bad.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Because my mum never recovered.
Speaker B:She.
Speaker B:She had undiagnosed bipolar.
Speaker B:She wouldn't get up for days and then she would get up and have manic episodes.
Speaker B:We were nicknamed fleabags at school because we were filthy and my dad was an alcoholic.
Speaker A:So out of all of this, you know, and running companies, how do you protect your well being?
Speaker A:And how do you protect your well being if you're a founder?
Speaker A:I guess So.
Speaker B:I think one of the most important things is not sweating the small stuff.
Speaker B:Because people say to me, stuff will happen at work and people will say to me, how do you stay so calm?
Speaker B:How do you not react to it?
Speaker B:And it's like, it's just not worth it in the scope of things.
Speaker B:It's not worth it.
Speaker B:And I think that stress is like the biggest killer.
Speaker B:Don't get me wrong.
Speaker B:I do get stressed.
Speaker B:But I'm really making an effort now to just not let stuff get to me.
Speaker A:It's only money.
Speaker B:It's only money and it's only a business.
Speaker B:I think Covid certainly taught that that you never know what's coming and you've just got to deal with it when it happens.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's weird, Covid.
Speaker A:This weird film we all watched, it's like, it's not real, is it?
Speaker A:You know, do you do stuff specifically to look after your well being?
Speaker A:After all the experience you've had, if you ended up up.
Speaker A:You meditate or you do anything, you know, to.
Speaker A:Or you just.
Speaker A:You've been through the fire.
Speaker A:So therefore.
Speaker B:And I do meditate.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because that's sort of not sweating the small stuff, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I do it before bed because I do.
Speaker B:I do meditation, manifestation and visualization.
Speaker B:Because then you think about it overnight.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:So it relaxes me before bed.
Speaker A:There's one my wife puts on me sometimes, listening together.
Speaker A:We've never, we've never.
Speaker A:We don't know what happens after 10 minutes.
Speaker A:They might, after 10 minutes just, just like, you know, talk absolute crap.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I was like, do you actually know what happens at the 20 minute mark?
Speaker A:We always pass out at 10 minutes.
Speaker B:Yeah, but I do, I do that.
Speaker B:I run or walk most days.
Speaker B:Got into yoga a while back, but that's sort of stopped for now, but I'm active.
Speaker B:I'll play badminton.
Speaker B:Yeah, anything to kind of de stress and focus on something else.
Speaker A:Sort of the chilled sport, badminton.
Speaker A:Unlike squash, isn't it?
Speaker A:The ball goes slowly.
Speaker A:I mean, genius idea.
Speaker A:I don't know where badminton was invented.
Speaker A:I assume the Brit Scott got involved.
Speaker A:You know, someone said this tennis is a bit quick.
Speaker A:He slow it down a bit so I can sort of have a little rest in between each go.
Speaker A:What kind of legacy do you want to leave?
Speaker A:I mean, big word, you know.
Speaker A:You know, let's think big for a minute.
Speaker B:If I could leave any legacy, it will be to get people talking again, to stop being afraid of.
Speaker B:Of conversations, of approaching people.
Speaker B:Because we're heading for a societal breakdown.
Speaker A:It's a huge problem.
Speaker B:I genuinely believe that unless we change, we are completely breaking down society.
Speaker B:We don't have the extended families anymore.
Speaker B:It's all about the nuclear family.
Speaker B:Everybody else is pushed away because of boundaries.
Speaker A:And explain that a bit more.
Speaker B:How many people live with their grandparents now or have their grandparents around the corner or have their aunts and uncles that they talk to regularly?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Did they originally.
Speaker A:I always feel a sort of London and the southeast is what I know that Britain has had this attitude of, well, we stick the old people in a cupboard and you're young, you leave home.
Speaker A:But it's been like that feels a long time.
Speaker A:Maybe it wasn't so much in the.
Speaker B:80S it was normal to have your aunt round the corner, your cousin up the road and the whole family would bring up the children.
Speaker B:It wouldn't just be the mum, it would be the extended family.
Speaker B:But now, because of children not having safe zones, they don't get a clip round the ear.
Speaker B:And I'm talking metaphorically from granny sort of saying, you don't want to do that, love.
Speaker A:The wisdom's lost.
Speaker B:Yes, the wisdom is lost and the resilience is lost.
Speaker A:So true.
Speaker A:Also, I. I just think the only people can really care about their old people are their kids, you know, I mean, you can stick them in care homes and pay someone to do it because you want to hide away from it.
Speaker A:But I mean, ultimately he's gonna, you know.
Speaker A:You know, I'd put up with my parents.
Speaker A:Whatever shape or form, they're my parents.
Speaker A:You know, it's sort of.
Speaker B:But that's unusual now.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think that's really true.
Speaker A:You know, I would say the funny thing is maybe it isn't for everyone, but talking to someone or talking to a someone, a stranger even, you know, someone Grew up in the 80s, you know, or.
Speaker A:I don't think that was ever super easy.
Speaker A:Like, even now when I ring someone, I've got to ring a client, or even when I've got to ring a friend.
Speaker A:I look forward to it sometimes, but I'm not very good on telephones.
Speaker A:But it's kind of like, right, I've got to ring them.
Speaker A:Right, okay.
Speaker A:And it's really intense experience talking to someone on a phone or talking to someone in person, isn't it?
Speaker A:Now, I'm a social person, so I do enjoy that, but it's.
Speaker A:It's easier.
Speaker A:It's still easier to text.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm generation, you know, 47.
Speaker A:So texting came in when I was 18, so that was a big thing at university.
Speaker A:Everyone started texting the moment you could.
Speaker A:It was like, oh, this is brilliant.
Speaker A:I don't have to ring people all the time.
Speaker A:So the point is, is you talk to people before because it was kind of the only option.
Speaker A:You rang them or you spoke to them in person.
Speaker A:No email, no texts, you know, so the more of these options you have quite hard to overcome.
Speaker A:The, the thing that.
Speaker A:And maybe it's about that.
Speaker A:You know that famous book, thinking fast, thinking slow.
Speaker A:You know, the brain hates to deploy.
Speaker A:It's like cleverer bit, you know, so you've got to sort of automate a bit.
Speaker A:So it requires so much less energy just to text someone.
Speaker A:Put your phone down.
Speaker A:That actually engage in conversation.
Speaker A:The brain's avoiding using the energy it is.
Speaker B:But at the same time, by you just texting them, you are making completely false assimilations of their life because you're seeing their Instagram posts and, oh, yeah.
Speaker A:You don't know what the truth is.
Speaker B:No, no.
Speaker B:And by just texting, you're never getting that balanced view.
Speaker B:You're thinking that everybody else is having a fantastic life while yours is going to shit.
Speaker B:And then you're like, well, what's wrong with me?
Speaker B:It must be because I'm ugly or whatever.
Speaker B:Because people aren't having those meaningful conversations.
Speaker B:They're not saying, oh, do you know what?
Speaker B:It's a great photo, but it was a terrible day.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's a real problem, this comparison, because we are built up to where minds are built to compare.
Speaker A:We're looking for successful people to copy.
Speaker B:But our minds are built to compare in a small tribe of 200 people, not 9 billion.
Speaker A:So don't we just need to get rid of social media?
Speaker A:I feel like it's eating itself anyway.
Speaker A:I feel like it's.
Speaker A:It's it's gonna disappear because every makes everybody unhappy.
Speaker A:It's becoming like smoking.
Speaker A:Everyone's like, well you could do it if you want but it's terrible for you.
Speaker B:But the average Gen Z is spending seven hours a day on their phones.
Speaker B:Seven hours a day.
Speaker A:I mean I just, I said it before we came on air.
Speaker A:I'm like, we are basically at the brink of World War iii.
Speaker A:I mean we may as well be in the Cuban Missile crisis and no one, no one's even talking about everyone's carrying on.
Speaker A:We're so like numb and don't I.
Speaker A:And in a way I'm happy about that, you know, don't give a.
Speaker A:It's just like, well you know, if it's World War iii, I'll see you tomorrow.
Speaker B:Just because everyone's so overwhelmed, we're just.
Speaker A:Over, you know, it's like we can't.
Speaker B:Take any more stimulation or any more fear mongering and that nobody knows what's true anymore because there's so much false news.
Speaker B:Where's the truth?
Speaker A:How do you navigate the next six months as an SME given the world's basically supposedly going down the toilet?
Speaker B:So husband and I were talking about that on the way here and I said well you've just got to hop onto the bucking bronco and hang on for dear life because there is likely to be more tax raises.
Speaker B:We've got the October budget coming up.
Speaker B:We're going to see probably national insurance raised again, taxes raised, minimum wage up again, employment laws coming, employment law coming.
Speaker B:So what's, what's the incentive other than.
Speaker A:I mean the only.
Speaker A:I was, I shouldn't laugh about these things but so many people have buggered off Dubai to do that business.
Speaker A:And I was thinking, well they're a bit close to World War III now.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, they might, they might think Britain's a little bit further away from the nukes.
Speaker A:I don't know, you know, I mean you can't win, can you?
Speaker A:But I agree, I think as an entrepreneur, the taxes and the employment law bill, which madness like, like it makes like zero sense.
Speaker A:I mean some of it might make sense but you know, it's all about having more employees, having more secure employment.
Speaker A:But you know, next October that's the exact opposite of what will happen.
Speaker A:There will be a lot of people getting fired under two years.
Speaker A:I mean every business I know I have to look through its list and say, well if you don't want, you're not sure about this person.
Speaker A:Meanwhile you've got AI on top.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, you got like, you know, and the irony is too, that you make it too difficult.
Speaker A:You put the taxes up too much.
Speaker A:You make.
Speaker A:We just put it in India.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:I mean it's like, yeah, you can legislate all you want here.
Speaker A:Yeah, but I'll just put it overseas then.
Speaker A:Fine, I'll outsource.
Speaker B:We've already done that with within deaky.
Speaker B:We've got Indian developers.
Speaker A:I've got some hope.
Speaker A:We had her on the pod.
Speaker A:A big up.
Speaker A:Alex to pledge who's an amazing female entrepreneur.
Speaker A:She runs something called Resi and she's just been appointed.
Speaker A:She was telling me on the pod she's friends with Rachel Reed.
Speaker A:She's now Rachel Reese, personal entrepreneur advisor.
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:And she's fantastic, you know, absolutely fantastic.
Speaker A:Bradford, cut the crap.
Speaker A:You know, she's like, you know, she was saying, look, the deregulation stuff's good, but yeah, the other stuff, I mean, but she was like, you've got to remember Rachel Reeves is in a Cabinet, the top 25.
Speaker B:Not one of them has ever worked in a business other than the bank.
Speaker B:What were you thinking?
Speaker A:Diversity.
Speaker A:Because they're all career politicians now because no one else wants to do the job.
Speaker A:You know, but none of them have.
Speaker B:Been honest about their past either.
Speaker A:What's been your biggest failure in work and what did it teach you?
Speaker B:My biggest failure to date has probably been know the origin, which is a clothing and lifestyle brand and we hit the market at the wrong time.
Speaker B:When we first looked at it, there was a big niche there, but by the time we got our act together, it was post Covid.
Speaker B:Nobody gave a damn about the environment anymore and it was all about cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap.
Speaker B:Okay, so.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And I didn't listen to my gut.
Speaker B:I was easily swayed by team members rather than standing my ground.
Speaker B:That was the biggest lesson.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know what you mean.
Speaker A:You end up listening to people.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because people all tell you the.
Speaker A:All the.
Speaker A:They tell you why not to do it.
Speaker A:So you start adapting, don't you?
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker A:So if you've got a vision, stick to it.
Speaker B:Exactly that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I had this yesterday.
Speaker B:We were designing the logo for Indique with.
Speaker B:With a brand consultancy and we ended up with a purple logo and I just wasn't convinced.
Speaker B:But everybody in the team was like, it's the right color to go.
Speaker B:And I said, I don't know.
Speaker B:But anyway, we settled on purple and then it was my ea.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:EXEA yesterday that said it's not the Right color.
Speaker B:Rach, you're not helping.
Speaker B:We've chosen purple.
Speaker B:And she said, well, which one did you like?
Speaker B:I said, well, I liked the orange.
Speaker B:She said, send it over to me.
Speaker B:She was like, it should be orange.
Speaker A:Yeah, it looks good.
Speaker B:So we're having this argument and the front doorbell goes.
Speaker B:Steve says to me, what have you ordered now?
Speaker B:I'm like, not guilty.
Speaker B:He comes in with a giant parcel, and somebody has sent me an orange tree.
Speaker B:Completely unrelated.
Speaker A:The universe works in marvelous ways, doesn't it?
Speaker A:God's like, well, let's just seal this deal.
Speaker A:What's the best piece of advice you were given?
Speaker B:To talk about my journey rather than hide or be embarrassed by it because it gives other people courage.
Speaker A:Finally, top tips for founders and entrepreneurs.
Speaker B:Do your homework and then take calculated risks.
Speaker B:Take that leap of faith, but making sure you've done your homework.
Speaker B:Black swans.
Speaker B:Look for black swans.
Speaker A:What are black swans again?
Speaker B:Black swans are movements as opposed to a new product like Google.
Speaker B:Google was a movement.
Speaker B:It wasn't just.
Speaker B:It changed the way people or researched.
Speaker B:Amazon was a movement.
Speaker B:It changed the way people shopped.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Look for them.
Speaker A:And do what about them?
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And react.
Speaker A:React to them effectively.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Or look for your own movements.
Speaker B:Look for your own movements because then you don't have the same competitors in that area.
Speaker A:Any others.
Speaker B:Always trust your gut.
Speaker A:Yeah, always.
Speaker A:If you can hear it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But you need to take time to be able to listen to it.
Speaker A:Meditation helps maybe.
Speaker B:And just having the courage to stand by your.
Speaker A:Much easier.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You care less about what people think, don't you?
Speaker A:It just gets louder too.
Speaker A:It's just like you can.
Speaker A:You can literally sort of psychologically go.
Speaker A:What's that saying?
Speaker A:Oh, I was saying don't do it, you know?
Speaker B:Well, I didn't hear it very loudly yesterday until the orange tree turned up.
Speaker A:Okay, so we're gonna play a little game here.
Speaker A:We call it business or.
Speaker A:Okay, we are gonna name some terms.
Speaker A:You need a paddle?
Speaker A:Grab the paddle.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Hold the paddle up nice and clear.
Speaker A:Business.
Speaker A:Love it.
Speaker A:We're going to name some terms, and you need to tell us whether you think it's business or we can discuss.
Speaker A:We all clear?
Speaker A:We good?
Speaker A:Okay, so just an easy one to warm up with the labor government, business or.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Feelings.
Speaker B:I'm embarrassed to be a woman with some of the people in Highlight labor power right now.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker A:And maybe going back to our point that none of them have ever been in business.
Speaker A:I mean, surely have a business secretary who's been in Business or something.
Speaker B:Watching that interview with Angela Rayner about housing.
Speaker B:Absolute car crash.
Speaker B:She says to the interviewer, there isn't a shortage of housing in the uk and he's going, what?
Speaker B:Well then why are you committing however many billions to, to building houses?
Speaker B:And she just couldn't answer the questions.
Speaker B:It was, it was a car crash.
Speaker A:Oh, I haven't seen it.
Speaker A:I did look up Angela Rayna and read all about it, but I mean, I have to say she, she does appear to have a.
Speaker A:Can I say that a chip on her shoulder was my reading of like her situation?
Speaker A:Like she seems to have a slight ax to grind and anger almost, you.
Speaker B:Know, did you not see her in Ibiza?
Speaker B:Whoop, whooping.
Speaker A:Was she whooping?
Speaker A:What Was she whooping?
Speaker B:She was in the dj, DJ box at some club and you're allowed to.
Speaker A:Whoop in a DJ box?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I just don't put it on.
Speaker A:Oh, she posts.
Speaker A:Yeah, she's down with the kids.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:That's quite righteous.
Speaker A:Yeah, sort of, you know, left wing is cool and you know, those rich people are bad or something.
Speaker A:I mean, I always struggle with that.
Speaker A:You know, why we, why, why is it not prejudice to hate rich people?
Speaker A:I mean, if, when you swap those sentences around, you want to talk about poor people like that, I mean, we should, we should be nice to everyone.
Speaker B:It's about the person.
Speaker A:Esg, Investing, environment, social governance.
Speaker A:So investing in impact investing, another term.
Speaker A:You know, investing in, you know, you're into ethics, apparently.
Speaker A:Bullshit.
Speaker B:I'm going to say bullshit because it's about the business model.
Speaker B:It's not about just investing in something just because it ticks boxes.
Speaker B:If it's a sound business model that has huge social or environmental impact, then great.
Speaker B:But not to tick boxes.
Speaker A:No, I agree.
Speaker A:I think that summary is so good we're going to move on.
Speaker A:Corporate social responsibility, same kind of thing.
Speaker A:More bullshit.
Speaker B:Yeah, more bullshit.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because if you're an ethical company, you don't need to be told, you'll do it anyway.
Speaker B:And again, it's a tick box exercise.
Speaker B:People are, are doing stuff just to be able to tick boxes, but as a result they're lying about it.
Speaker B:You know, the amount of greenwashing, I won't name the brand, but a large brand.
Speaker B:A few years ago were advertising their lovely new organic cotton range of clothing, a huge range.
Speaker B:And I was like, how are they managing that when we know that there's a bit of a shortage of properly certified organic cotton at the, at the moment?
Speaker B:So I did my research, it turned out that they had certified it themselves.
Speaker A:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:So much that in the cosmetic skincare industry, like, you know, 98% of people felt they look, you know, younger.
Speaker A:Two weeks later, it's like they got a free sample.
Speaker A:If they tick a box and they think they look younger, they get another one, you know.
Speaker B:So whilst I think it's really important to.
Speaker B:To do it, meaning it just telling customers or companies to do it, to tick boxes that they then lie about is just.
Speaker A:It's irritating, isn't it?
Speaker B:It's completely wrong.
Speaker A:Crowdfunding.
Speaker A:You done any crowdfunding?
Speaker B:I haven't done any crowdfunding.
Speaker B:Well, that's a tricky one, isn't it?
Speaker B:I mean, I'm gonna say business because it has allowed some great businesses to start.
Speaker B:But again, depending on the crowdfunding that you do, a lot of people are mistaken and that they think that they've got a share of the business and they haven't at all.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:They might get a free ticket or a free sample or whatever.
Speaker B:But, yeah, it's a tricky one, but it's helped a lot of businesses.
Speaker A:It's a bit like Dragon's Den, really.
Speaker A:It's sort of crowdfunding in a way.
Speaker A:It's advertising a lot of it, sort of getting it out there, you know.
Speaker A:Best way I've seen people use it is just to have.
Speaker A:Have it.
Speaker A:As you go out and you raise money.
Speaker A:But you use a crowdfunder to say what?
Speaker A:If you're interested, here's the link.
Speaker A:Yeah, you can put in a grand or ten grand whenever you want, you know, just do it.
Speaker A:And then people get that sort of shopping experience, sort of dopamine, like, yeah, I'm in equal paternity leave.
Speaker A:Touched on this earlier.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:Thought we'd be just banging there.
Speaker B:What, you thought I'd be like, straight away, they must have it.
Speaker B:It.
Speaker A:Can't trust men with much, though, can you?
Speaker B:It's a really hard one because so much of things like stat sick pay and everything else like that, people assume that all of the brunt of it falls on the government and it doesn't.
Speaker B:It falls on the businesses.
Speaker B:So even with maternity pay, the company has to pay what the first six weeks company pays.
Speaker A:Unless the company's less than 10 people or something, then the government pays it.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, something like that.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So again, it's falling onto the company.
Speaker A:Does fall onto the business to pay it.
Speaker A:Are you hitting on something?
Speaker A:I very much agree with you because it's this sort of constant narrative of like, well, we've got to look after employees and.
Speaker A:Yeah, you do.
Speaker A:But if the businesses are always paying for it, it's like, where, where's the line?
Speaker A:You know, it's like, I mean, it's.
Speaker A:My dad would say it's like, you know, I, you know, I'm all for you having shot, but that's your choice, you better budget for it.
Speaker A:You know, it's like, why is it my responsibility to pay for you?
Speaker A:You know what if you want to have one every year, I'm supposed to just like be cool with that.
Speaker A:You know, if you want to do it, do it, but have some money to do it.
Speaker B:Don't get me wrong, if people are genuinely sick, then I obviously want to do everything I can possibly do to help them.
Speaker B:But people in the company and whoever you ask that are just employees, genuinely believe that the government pays for it.
Speaker A:Yeah, they probably do.
Speaker B:They don't understand that it's coming out of my pocket.
Speaker B:Steve's pocket.
Speaker B:Your pocket.
Speaker A:Great point.
Speaker B:And, and then they're like, well, no, that's why we pay national insurance.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:There's a lot of assumptions like that.
Speaker A:There's a lot of misunderstanding about tax and you know, what fools are.
Speaker A:Oh, companies can afford a couple of extra percent.
Speaker A:No, most of them are breaking even.
Speaker A:That's, that involves someone else losing their.
Speaker B:Job and, and I'm gonna get a lot of, of backlash for this.
Speaker B:But one of the things that I found out recently, which I was like, is that fair was somebody that had been on maternity leave, which obviously we, we'd paid for as well as, as the government.
Speaker B:And then they came back to work and said that they were pregnant again and that they had accrued 11 bank holidays whilst they'd been on maternity leave.
Speaker B:So they didn't really need to come back to work because they were going to come back one or two days a week.
Speaker B:And the 11, 11 bank holidays that they were owed from when they'd been on maternity leave.
Speaker A:It's true, it's how it works.
Speaker A:Their crew holiday that blows my mind.
Speaker A:That people on maternity leave, a crew holidays, come back to work.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, and I was just like, is that totally true?
Speaker A:Especially when you're having to keep the job open.
Speaker B:Yes, exactly.
Speaker A:You know, you can't really hire someone to replace them.
Speaker B:Exactly, yes.
Speaker A:I have to say it's a really tricky conversation.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker A:And again, again, it's one that people need to be calm and level headed about rather than, you know, getting wow, you know, angry about or sort of not allowing both sides to say, but no one really wants to hear what the employer thinks, Even though.
Speaker A:Because we're the massive minority.
Speaker A:Even though there's loads of them, you know, it's sort of nobody.
Speaker A:And you take that stat about how, you know, it's 5.5 million businesses with lower than 250 people.
Speaker A:I mean, most businesses are tough, tiny.
Speaker A:You know, losing a member of staff for a year or is a major, major issue.
Speaker A:Training someone else up, still having to.
Speaker B:Pay something towards them, having a new person, the training time and everything else, and.
Speaker B:And then keeping the job open for them to then say, well, I'm not coming back.
Speaker B:Or.
Speaker B:Or I'm now going on maternity leave again.
Speaker A:Tricky, I think.
Speaker A:I think the law is there for a reason, because I think it does create safety for someone.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:To have children, you don't want people in fear of having it.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, population decline or, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Is it your right to have a child?
Speaker A:Well, I think it's a bit strong.
Speaker A:I think it's your privilege to have a child and, you know, God willing and whatever, I hope it happens for you, if that's what you want in life.
Speaker A:But it's not a right.
Speaker A:It's not even a right from God.
Speaker A:It's a sort of like, you know, it's something that we should all be very supportive.
Speaker A:Supportive to give you the opportunity.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And we do everything we can.
Speaker B:You know, we have flexible working and everything else.
Speaker B:But it would just be nice if people realized that it was coming down to the human behind the business.
Speaker A:Anything else you want to tell the world about?
Speaker B:Yeah, I've written a book.
Speaker A:You have?
Speaker B:Yes, I written it with my sister.
Speaker B:It was my sister that wanted to do it.
Speaker A:Your sister who passed?
Speaker B:No, no, my elder sister.
Speaker B:Her dad was the one that transitioned.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B: And he died in: Speaker B:Leaving them with not a great relationship.
Speaker B:And so she was angry and said, let's write a book.
Speaker B:The people need to know the truth.
Speaker B:So we've got a deal with Hashit and it comes out next year.
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker A:It's got a name or.
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:It's called the Baronesses.
Speaker B:And, yeah, it's very scary, but exciting.
Speaker A:What a great way to deal with such a complex situation, you know, very cathartic.
Speaker A:I don't think there's anything better.
Speaker A:I mean, I do it through music, but to write it all down, get it all out, get it out on paper, you can.
Speaker A:You literally can close the book on it, put it on the shelf and be like, I've dealt with it.
Speaker A:You know, anyway, good for you.
Speaker B:But to get a major book deal was unexpected but great.
Speaker A:I imagine you blew.
Speaker A:You blew the doors off once you started telling after school.
Speaker A:They were like, give her the deal.
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker A:You've been absolutely brilliant, Rachel.
Speaker A:Thanks very much.
Speaker B:Thank you for having me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What would be the best thing to look up for you or if they want to find out more about you or.
Speaker A:What do you want them to look up?
Speaker B:They can look up Tiny Box Company or Rachel Watkin.
Speaker B:I've got my own.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:What can spell W, A, T, K, Y, N?
Speaker A:Yeah, I love it.
Speaker A:Obe.
Speaker A:Uh, great stuff.
Speaker A:So thank you very much.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:There you have it.
Speaker A:That was this week's episode of Business Without.
Speaker A:We'll be back next Wednesday.
Speaker A:Until then, it's ciao.
