Episode 420
Most Firms Get Marketing Wrong, Here's Why - Mark Palmer
Mark argues most SMEs fail at marketing because they misunderstand the customer, the market and the value they actually provide.
About this episode
Mark Palmer dismantles the modern marketing fog: founders often make stronger marketers than the marketers they hire, most values pages are fiction, and copying competitors is a reliable way to shrink margins.
He argues marketing’s core job has not changed: understand the customer, understand the market, then build something worth buying.
The conversation covers value propositions, brand positioning, why digital natives miss the bigger picture, how to hire a marketer, where partnerships create real leverage, and why some brands mutate beyond recognition. Practical, direct and grounded in real examples.
About the guest
Mark Palmer is a brand consultant and best-selling author of The Work Smarter Guide to Marketing. He runs Maverick Planet, advising global brands and high-growth UK businesses on positioning and growth. He has shaped brands for Google, Vodafone, Lego, English Cricket and more.
Key moments
- 00:00 - Why Facebook profits from scam adverts
- 00:54 - How marketing became fragmented and misunderstood
- 03:55 - How to tell if someone actually understands marketing
- 05:10 - Why founders often outperform hired marketers
- 07:56 - The Unilever brand key and nine-question process
- 09:59 - How Grey Goose changed the vodka market
- 14:45 - Guinness Zero and the rise of low-alcohol positioning
- 16:58 - Why company values drift and lose meaning
- 19:01 - How large platforms get away with poor service
- 22:57 - What startups must prove to investors
- 27:26 - Why most marketers confuse tactics for strategy
- 34:41 - The power and risk of brand partnerships
- 44:53 - Five practical rules every founder should follow
Mentioned in this episode
- Airbnb - Example of redefining a market rather than competing narrowly
- Aperol Spritz - Used to explain category expansion and cultural trends
- Apple - Case study in consistent positioning and product-led brand building
- BBC - Referenced in discussion on value drift and public trust
- Ben Grubbs - Ex-YouTube leader investing in creator-driven brands
- BMW - Example of brand stretch, mutation and positioning discipline
- Boeing - Used to illustrate gaps between stated values and behaviour
- Burberry - Case study on repositioning and over-extension
- Channel 4 Paralympics - Example of exceptional brand-building
- Diageo - Later purchaser of Grey Goose
- Good Good Golf - Creator-led brand built from YouTube
- Grey Goose - Demonstrates market reframing and super-premium creation
- Guinness / Guinness Zero - Example of using consumer trends to reposition
- Hermes / Evri - Renaming after reputation issues
- Lego - Example of brand stretch from toys to entertainment
- London Business School - Where Mark teaches founders
- Mac vs PC campaign - Classic Apple positioning example
- Meta / Facebook / Instagram - Discussion on fraud, values and regulation
- NatWest - Used to highlight poor customer experience
- OpenAI - Values drift example
- Pimm’s - Seasonal brand trapped by narrow positioning
- QuickBooks - Clear value proposition case
- Serious Fraud Office - Referenced in discussion on corruption patterns
- Smirnoff / Absolut - Vodka category comparisons
- Thames Water - Monopoly behaviour and brand issues
- Ticketmaster - Friction and reputation example
- Virgin Media - Values vs behaviour mismatch
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Transcript
Facebook make 14 to 15 billion out of fraud and scams.
Speaker A:They're actually making money from people who are advertising frauds and scams.
Speaker A:You know the number one value all American companies claim 63% I think is integrity.
Speaker A:What does it mean though?
Speaker A:If you want another good game, go back and originally see what OpenAI's values were four years ago, what they're now.
Speaker A:Value proposition is two things.
Speaker A:It's what problem do you solve for your customer and the benefit.
Speaker A:Second part of it, what's the quantified value?
Speaker A:I think the interesting thing is if you're an entrepreneur or a starter, you sort of naturally get marketing, but you might not know how to articulate it.
Speaker B:What's your favorite?
Speaker B:What's your best bit of branding and marketing?
Speaker B:You've seen.
Speaker B:Marketing the only department that can spend a fortune and still say we're building awareness.
Speaker B:And what if I told you that most companies don't actually understand marketing?
Speaker B:The most marketers don't understand understand customers and most founders often make better marketeers than actual marketeers.
Speaker B:So today on Business Without BS we have Mark Palmer, best selling author and brand consultant.
Speaker B:To help answer these conundrums, we dive into what Mark thinks the biggest nonsense is in marketing.
Speaker B:Why founders are often better marketers than the so called pros, the uncomfortable truth about value propositions, and why copying competitors is commercial suicide.
Speaker B:If genuine growth matters to you, stay with us.
Speaker B:Welcome to Business without bs, the alternative mba and today's guest is Mark Palmer, best selling author of the Work Smarter Guide to Marketing which hit number one on Amazon's marketing charts and earned five star endorsements from global leaders at Coca Cola, Vodafone, Google and the Marketing society.
Speaker B:The slightly lesser known of those perhaps.
Speaker B:Mark runs the brand consultancy Maverick Planet where he helped reposition everyone from Google, Vodafone and Lego to English Cricket, the president of Nigeria and high growth startups and why not?
Speaker B:He is also part of Catalyst, a collection of leading consultants focusing on bringing human intelligence to a rapidly changing business world full of AI, I guess.
Speaker B:A former strategist and agency leader, Mark has spent his career shaping some of the world's best known brands.
Speaker B:Mark, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker A:I I to be fair on the Amazon I got to number one when it was new released.
Speaker A:I'd love if in the run up to Christmas for gifting it still was number one but it had a period which was quite good.
Speaker B:Well, I mean I think you speak brilliantly so check it out.
Speaker B:You couldn't read a better book I'm sure so Your book is how to do Smarter Marketing without the bs?
Speaker B:Yep, excellent.
Speaker B:What is the bullshit you see in marketing a business might want to look out for?
Speaker A:I think the main issue is sort of what marketing was has drifted.
Speaker A:So it used to be very straightforward and people got it.
Speaker A:Now lots of people got marketing titles unfortunately aren't trained in it.
Speaker A:So it's a bit like you're a cook, but you only need to do, you only need to know one thing, how make sauces or how to pastry.
Speaker A:The second issue and it's an age of LinkedIn where everybody's on it and everybody's got opinion.
Speaker A:It's just like frenzy upon a frenzy of everybody's got a view without an opinion, without an idea.
Speaker A:So it's really difficult to see through the noise.
Speaker A:So it's just someone will say jaguar, we were chatting about earlier and I hate it, I like it, but there's no logic to it.
Speaker A:And then just from a it's ongoing thing, it's got very, very siloed.
Speaker A:So people are doing one aspect of it.
Speaker A:So people think, for example, that advertising and sales is marketing and it's an aspect of marketing.
Speaker A:So they're all about amplifying what they've got without ever working out what it is or creating a product or understanding the consumer.
Speaker A:So it just got very, very disjointed and very, very fragmented.
Speaker B:So just taking that in steps.
Speaker B:If I was a business, how do I know if someone has had the right training in marketing?
Speaker B:Because I often think I wouldn't know, I wouldn't know.
Speaker B:What's the course?
Speaker B:I'm looking for this.
Speaker A:It's not.
Speaker A:You don't necessarily have a course.
Speaker A:Some of the best marketers learned on the job, it's where they've learned on the job.
Speaker A:So, you know, if you've worked at a Unilever, Procter and Gamble or you know, one of the blue chip companies, you look properly change you'd been brought brands up, you'll have done something.
Speaker A:The thing you would normally look out for is do they, when they tackle a problem, an issue, look at it from a point of view, understand the consumer?
Speaker A:Do they understand the market in terms of how the competitors are doing it?
Speaker A:Do they look at what the whole nature of the business is?
Speaker A:So they're not just doing the ads, Would they have a view on the product?
Speaker A:Would they have a, would they have a view on how you should price it?
Speaker A:You know, they just look at it as a joined up thing.
Speaker A:So it helps if you've got that and you could acquire it.
Speaker A:It doesn't mean you have to be trained.
Speaker A:The problem is so many people now have started off in a niche in digital, for example, and then they progressed up, so they've ended up very, very narrow, very, very soon.
Speaker A:And then they're being asked to do.
Speaker A:You're suddenly in a room being asked to do something else and you just don't know what to do.
Speaker A:So you're going to recommend what you know.
Speaker A:So that's the problem.
Speaker B:I feel it's a really gifted.
Speaker B:Or if somebody's really good at marketing, that ability to understand the consumer, I think it feels quite a rare skill, don't you?
Speaker B:It's like if you've really got it, I mean, some of the most successful entrepreneurs in the world, the ones who really understand what the people want.
Speaker A:So I think that's totally true.
Speaker A:I think most of founders and lots of entrepreneurs are fundamentally great marketers because they go back to, what's the problem?
Speaker A:Understand the audience, and I'm fixing something.
Speaker A:And I've worked with lots of entrepreneurs.
Speaker A:They sort of like go, that's fucking wrong, and excuse my French, we should be fixing that.
Speaker A:And why is that?
Speaker A:Pen.
Speaker A:Got that?
Speaker A:And what if we had a pen that floated?
Speaker A:Because there's a market.
Speaker A:So I think you naturally find that people are entrepreneurs because what they're doing is basic marketing.
Speaker A:They're going, that's a problem, here's a solution.
Speaker A:How do we do it?
Speaker A:What's happened?
Speaker A:There's lots of people going to the end.
Speaker A:It's all about the right, where do I put it?
Speaker A:What's the message?
Speaker A:So hence why you've got lots of, you know, we've got Christmas ads all over the place for everybody else, and everybody's sorting everybody's Christmas ad, and then you're sitting there going, well, what's that going to do?
Speaker A:To sell any product?
Speaker A:Or why is that relevant for my business?
Speaker A:So good people you just have a conversation with.
Speaker A:I think the interesting thing is, if you're an entrepreneur or a starter, you sort of naturally get marketing, but you might not know how to articulate it or to organize it to make it more powerful for you.
Speaker A:I think that's the thing that lots of entrepreneurs miss.
Speaker A:They sort of know what it is, but they might need someone to say, let's say you get someone who comes in to design your house or redo your garden.
Speaker A:You might know what you want, but you'd like an architect to go, well, we could do this.
Speaker A:And what do you think?
Speaker A:And then you make a Decision.
Speaker A:Lots of entrepreneurs have got know what they want, but they'd like someone's help to do it.
Speaker A:However, there's an awful lot of people, if I take the other side, who are marketers, the answer is always decking.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker B:Well put.
Speaker B:But I mean, exactly like you say, an entrepreneur knows what they want and whatever, but it's the tagline, it's the execute it.
Speaker B:And where do you, where do you do it or what do you do next is it.
Speaker A:That's the end.
Speaker A:So if you jumped, like, you know, basically watch the Apprentice and then don't do what they do.
Speaker A:So in the Apprentice, they sit there in the room, they go with a line, is this.
Speaker A:And we call it Magic pajamas.
Speaker A:And you go, why?
Speaker A:And we're going to do this product and then we're going to test it with the consumers and then the consumers tell you it's completely wrong and then we're going to still do it anyway, so.
Speaker A:And then we're going to sell stuff to people and we're going to undercut the very last minute and we've won the task.
Speaker A:But good news, I've never got to go back to see them ever again.
Speaker B:So if I'm an entrepreneur and I've got an idea and I want to help with the marketing and I think I find someone who seems to know what the hell they're talking.
Speaker B:Talking about.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, they would tell me what to do, but what am I trying to get out of them then in those first steps, you think so?
Speaker A:I, I, When I work with entrepreneurs, I.
Speaker A:There's a.
Speaker A:There's a couple of devices.
Speaker A:Not in the stuff, whichever.
Speaker A:There's a great device that's in the back of the book called a brand key, which is used by Unilever.
Speaker A:And it's basically, I've turned into nine questions.
Speaker A:So it's nine questions that you go through and answer that's taking you on a journey of discovery to articulate your.
Speaker B:Your book.
Speaker A:Thank you very much.
Speaker A:It's not mine, it's Unilever's.
Speaker A:So the first question you start with is, what's your root strengths?
Speaker A:Why did you do it?
Speaker A:Where did you come from?
Speaker A:You have a history with you, the first people who invent it, whatever, then you would understand the audience, then you would understand the market.
Speaker A:And then between those, you're then trying to find an insight.
Speaker B:Isn't the audience the same as the market?
Speaker A:No, the market's different.
Speaker A:So in technical terms, the word gets confused because people say market and they made an AUDIENCE Normally what you mean is the who do you compete against and what area market.
Speaker A:So if I'm in the drinks market, there's a broad market called drinks.
Speaker A:But then I might be in the spirits market, I might be in the whiskey market.
Speaker A:And that's a really interesting thing because often what happens people define their market too narrowly and don't ever imagine where else they could be.
Speaker A:So if you take some of the big changes like Airbnb, when Airbnb come and it rethought the market for leisure and travel cause previously people went on hotels and people in an Airbnb went what if we changed it?
Speaker A:So it's a really interesting thing.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:So you'll often find with entrepreneurs, they tend to be quite good at re looking at a market and seeing like a need that redefines what the market is.
Speaker A:Then the audience is a.
Speaker A:It's a horrible word and I hate targeting or customer.
Speaker A:But at the end of day it's understanding people and what their problems are or what stops them or what you what they need fixing.
Speaker A:And then if you get connect the two, you've got something that someone might buy.
Speaker B:Where's package?
Speaker B:How you package it is where's that coming?
Speaker A:So then once you've done that, so once you know in simple terms.
Speaker A:Right, I'll go back, what's that?
Speaker A:You know what the problem is?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You've worked out what your solution is, joined up product price, service, what I'm going to do.
Speaker A:Then the third bit is how do I do it?
Speaker A:So you might go, let's take Grey Goose.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Grey Goose is a fantastic example of a vodka which redefined the vodka market back in the late 80s.
Speaker B:And I've blind tasted vodkas and Grey Goose didn't win, not even close.
Speaker A:So I do a thing with students where I blind taste two vodkas.
Speaker A:I have to be careful.
Speaker A:Now I have to do the practical test.
Speaker A:Is it okay that you want to drink?
Speaker A:But it's very popular.
Speaker A:And then I get two vodkas and one's A and one B.
Speaker A:And then I ask them to rank it out 10 not knowing what it is.
Speaker A:That's the first thing.
Speaker A:Then I ask them to guess what it is, which they never get right.
Speaker A:And then I reveal which one's 9 and which one's 10 and one's absolute and one's Great goose.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they always pick absolute as the better vodka.
Speaker A:It's never the same and everything else in it.
Speaker A:But the interesting thing is the numbers.
Speaker A:So let's say some Will be.
Speaker A:Sometimes it'll be seven, sometimes it'll be five, sometimes it'll be six.
Speaker A:Sometimes absolutely leading.
Speaker A:Sometimes it won't.
Speaker A:But by this point, it suddenly makes you realize they're so scared that they've got it wrong, that they don't know.
Speaker B:And you tell them, one is a premium one.
Speaker A:No, we're just two vodkas.
Speaker A:So they just.
Speaker B:They're guessing that.
Speaker A:So at that point, when you get to do it, you then reveal what.
Speaker A:What Absolute did in its marketing.
Speaker A:So when Absolute came in, the market for premium vodka was very simple.
Speaker A:It was Russian.
Speaker A:If it was Russian, it was premium.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the only one that was the alternative was Absolute, which was Swedish.
Speaker A:And it was about purity.
Speaker A:Apart from that, that was.
Speaker A:Everything else was below.
Speaker A:And in the uk, I'm old enough to remember this, we used to have fake vodka that sounded Russian called.
Speaker A:Which was.
Speaker A:Came from Warrington.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And then you've got Smirnoff, which is the international volume version that sits at the back.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Grey Goose came in and the market, therefore was premium.
Speaker A:Was Russian.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Price at the bottom is classic market.
Speaker A:And then Grey Goose came in and went, what if we created a super premium vodka?
Speaker A:The reason they did the French, because at the time, Perrier was super cool in America, so they thought premium was French.
Speaker A:And then they hired a super guy to create it.
Speaker A:So they brought like, the expert in and then they toured France and eventually found a disused cognac distillery.
Speaker A:And they wrapped it all up, the names made up.
Speaker A:And then what they did was they kept on.
Speaker A:Put.
Speaker A:Kept on entering into vodka tasting tests.
Speaker A:And eventually they did a vodka tasting test in Chicago and it won.
Speaker A:And then they ran an ad with all the other vodkas, listed the world's best tasting vodka.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Now go back to.
Speaker A:It's joined up.
Speaker A:You've said it, but I'm going to make you believe it's the world's best tasting vodka.
Speaker A:So if you've got a bottle of Great.
Speaker A:Because I've got one, got a bought one with me.
Speaker A:It's got a cork in it.
Speaker A:It makes sound.
Speaker A:It's not like in a vodka, it's at twice the price.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Perhaps it's not 10% above.
Speaker A:It's twice the price.
Speaker A:When they used to deliver it, it was in wooden boxes with strawberries.
Speaker A:They only let it be allowed in premium hotels.
Speaker A:They, sorry, we're not gonna let you have it.
Speaker A:And then they launched it originally by giving it away for free.
Speaker A:Do you know where they gave away for free in the street?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:They did it The Vanity Fair party after the Oscars.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Where it had.
Speaker A:All the celebs are doing it and it sounds, you know, it's like, oh, wonderful.
Speaker A:But it's like super smart.
Speaker B:Who did all this?
Speaker B:This is Diagio.
Speaker A:No, no, no.
Speaker A:Jaja bought it.
Speaker A:It was an entrepreneur who just thought there was a gap in the market.
Speaker A:Typical entrepreneur.
Speaker A:I think there's a market there and I think there's something over here.
Speaker A:I mean, there's one that's floating around now.
Speaker A:We'll give it a sidebar if you do.
Speaker A:You know, Ryan Reynolds obviously sponsors Wrexham.
Speaker A:I think he's got Aviation Gin, which is Canada, which is number one gin that he owns and bought through.
Speaker A:So you've got celebrity endorsement.
Speaker A:You've got the massive Aperol Spritz.
Speaker A:What if I suggested to you we found a major international female celebrity that we created our own version of Aperol Spritz for, But we called it something else to know.
Speaker A:Concepts, idea.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's a.
Speaker A:What's the problem?
Speaker A:What solution?
Speaker A:And that's what entrepreneurs do.
Speaker A:So what's happened to marketing is it's become all technique and finish as opposed.
Speaker B:To sleight of hand.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:And here's the thing, you and I are consumers, so we can quite happily have a conversation about vodka without you being a marketing expert.
Speaker A:Everybody sits in a pub.
Speaker A:I mean, pubs are really interesting.
Speaker A:There's two things that you go into a pub that fundamentally stand out between all other beers at the moment.
Speaker A:2.
Speaker B:Two beers that stand out.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Whenever you're going to go.
Speaker A:And you go, what am I gonna have?
Speaker A:And you go.
Speaker A:And then you.
Speaker A:People often go, guinness, Guinness.
Speaker A:One in nine pints.
Speaker B:But that's.
Speaker B:That's historically.
Speaker B:I'm not even sure.
Speaker A:No, no, Guinness.
Speaker A:Guinness is now one in nine pints.
Speaker A:It never used to be.
Speaker B:Oh, it's become more popular.
Speaker A:And they've done a load of stuff.
Speaker B:With the zero Guinnesses.
Speaker A:Zero Guinness is a great example of what's the problem.
Speaker A:And then.
Speaker A:So there's a consumer trend that you will know that lots of young people are social, but they go to the gym and are.
Speaker A:People my age would have a session you regret being.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:People want to be social, but they don't necessarily want to be smashed.
Speaker A:The historic positioning for low alcohol was.
Speaker A:It was like for people who didn't drink and drive, but it was like a poorer version of.
Speaker A:And that was the perception.
Speaker A:So going back to what Guinness did, Guinness invested an absolute fortune in the technology that it created Guinness zero for to mean that it's a high quality product that you can't really tell the difference of.
Speaker A:They didn't position it.
Speaker A:They haven't ever positioned it as a low alcohol.
Speaker A:That's why they called it things like zero.
Speaker A:And then they've adopted it with all the other structures that go through.
Speaker A:The other thing that they've then done is they've started to put all sorts of things around it in relation to.
Speaker A:There's a concept called zebra ring.
Speaker A:I don't know if you know this zebra ring is the idea that you go out and you might have a full one and then have a zebra.
Speaker A:Have a zero to not have a session.
Speaker B:All right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And get.
Speaker A:I mean Guinnesses.
Speaker A:I mean, again, it's not.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:And it's Guinness also have.
Speaker A:You know the thing about splitting the G?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:So if you get a pint of Guinness, it's got the Guinness on the side.
Speaker A:And then the concept is it's become a social meme that when you have your first sip, you supposed to try and exactly split the G. Oh, yes.
Speaker B:I have heard of splitting the G.
Speaker A:And I'm not sure whether.
Speaker B:Where the hell did that come from?
Speaker A:It could have been something that someone did that someone adopted.
Speaker A:It could be something someone invented.
Speaker A:I love the theory and I'd like to test this.
Speaker A:Whether over time they've been moving the G down.
Speaker A:I don't know if that's true.
Speaker A:Lucky saint luck.
Speaker A:Because lucky say and.
Speaker A:But it's also my low alcohol thing is positioned like a pint.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:That's a classic example where people have.
Speaker A:Understand a cultural trend.
Speaker B:I would have given it to Heineken.
Speaker B:0 Is the best sort of first best beer.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, sorry.
Speaker A:And that's basically what people do.
Speaker A:It's the same as it.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:It's no more complicated than that because at the end of the day, people are consumers in the real world buying real stuff.
Speaker B:So yeah, I mean, maybe a good place to go is this.
Speaker B:Values matter, but mind the gap.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:This is sort of in.
Speaker B:In terms of a brand in a deep sense.
Speaker B:What are your values?
Speaker B:Is it.
Speaker B:What does this mean?
Speaker A:So most companies will have written down, you'll see them on the website, you'll duck around.
Speaker A:There'll be some sort of values they've given different words, some they call the principles.
Speaker A:You'll find.
Speaker B:Oh, I see.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Find them everywhere.
Speaker A:So historically and classic marketing and classic business, you would say that really matters.
Speaker A:So because it's how you behave or how you turn up or what you show up.
Speaker A:So if Apple was about innovation, Apple would be always innovative and how it's behave, if somebody else was really friendly, that's how they behave.
Speaker A:Right, so.
Speaker A:And then it's not just the brand is in the pit, it's how the company and the staff behave.
Speaker B:Okay, but values are.
Speaker B:New thing.
Speaker A:No, it goes back ages.
Speaker B:I can't, I sort of can't imagine old companies doing it.
Speaker B:But really all companies would have values.
Speaker A:And they, they wouldn't have necessarily written them down or had a website to show them or to show them.
Speaker A:But you know, you would have had people saying, this is what you stand for, is what we believe in.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So take the, take the thing that I think I agree, Apple was known as innovation.
Speaker B:That's what they were born out of.
Speaker A:So in simple terms, what you've got is, let's say you've got five or six principles or things that you stand for.
Speaker A:You might stand for innovation, you might stand for straightforwardness.
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:So you've got things.
Speaker A:Now, normally what that matters is they become like your glue and grip.
Speaker A:So when you remember your staff go, well, this is what we're standing for, this is how we do things.
Speaker A:When a crisis comes up, you know what you, you were doing.
Speaker A:So a great example of where it's all got Dr. Is the BBC.
Speaker A:So what, what exactly does the BBC stand for?
Speaker A:Once you get a gray line in it, you're sort of losing your way, I would argue.
Speaker A:I love the BBC.
Speaker A:I think it's really, really important.
Speaker A:But I sort of think they're becoming populous.
Speaker A:They're chasing ratings and they're chasing news because that's what everybody else does.
Speaker A:And then, then they've got that, they've got that terribly mutated word which has become balance.
Speaker A:And balance is not the same as factually neutral or critically thinking.
Speaker A:And now I've got, I mean, now I've got the BBC news.
Speaker A:This is me as a market researcher where I understand when there's been a knife crime, you might interview the people who were there to say what happened.
Speaker A:But now we're going to places and we're doing vox pops before of their opinion.
Speaker A:And I'm going.
Speaker A:And I couldn't do that if I couldn't get away with that as market research.
Speaker B:I always find that strange already for whenever they kind of even questions answered to just get anyone to ring in.
Speaker B:I find it a bit.
Speaker A:And there's the eminently mateless comment, which was when she was a Newsnight, before she left, which is we were Struggling to find two economists we'd.
Speaker A:Struggling to find an economist was against Brexit.
Speaker A:We could find 50 before, but by 11 o' clock we'd found one who was again was for Brexit by 11.
Speaker B:O' clock in terms of their having to go out of their way to find someone to put a balance on.
Speaker B:But really though, the truth is the opinion of every expert we speak to just about says it's monkeys.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:But so where it matters from business is one, it's like staff hire.
Speaker A:I'm joining a company, I'm doing something to my purpose.
Speaker A:I believe that's what it is.
Speaker A:That's one.
Speaker A:And two, it matters from clients.
Speaker A:Because if you tell me this works, will it work if it goes wrong, can I trust you, you return it.
Speaker A:There's a load of stuff like that.
Speaker A:And then separately it really matters where once you get gaps, gaps loses trust.
Speaker A:So let's take Elon Musk, very innovative, very dynamic.
Speaker A:We all thought it was super cool.
Speaker A:And then he basically is a nutter.
Speaker A:And imagine a situation where you've got a car which people have bought, they're actually putting stickers on the back to tell you that they bought this before.
Speaker A:He was a nutter right now.
Speaker A:And because he was so much of the brand and he was so much of it about what now, it doesn't mean.
Speaker A:This is the interesting thing to my mind, if Tesla had made more of its company values about innovation and pulled more up.
Speaker A:It hasn't got a marketing director, by the way.
Speaker A:It would have been more able to defend it, doesn't it?
Speaker B:That is amazing.
Speaker A:Yeah, it would have more able to defend it when something went wrong with its founder.
Speaker A:It was quite interesting.
Speaker A:Apple's being able to defend itself and survive.
Speaker A:Steve Jobs not being.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So for more sorts of things, you're more likely to trust, you're more likely to get consistency, you're more like to growth, you're more likely to stay.
Speaker A:If you get a gap, it leads to a lack of trust, people will leave.
Speaker A:And then ultimately when I'm making a decision, if I don't believe you anymore or I don't trust you anymore or you're not consistent.
Speaker A:It's the same with a friend.
Speaker A:If your friend starts behaving in a different way, you're less likely to engage with them.
Speaker A:Historically I would have said it really matters.
Speaker A:And historically your values really matter.
Speaker A:Yeah, if you get your values wrong and then people, you get exposed.
Speaker A:Ultimately it's really bad news for a business and you've seen it you know like John Lewis lost its way for quite a while.
Speaker A:You've seen it all over the place.
Speaker A:The only difference is now I, I'm.
Speaker A:I would have always said that I think in the technical world with fake news and platforms I think people are getting away with it.
Speaker A:So you know I'm on Amazon, I've got a book, 50 plus percent of all books are sold on Amazon.
Speaker A:Most people go in prime.
Speaker A:So I might not like Amazon, I've got people who might do it but the choice of not using Amazon is quite a lot of friction so they can therefore bought.
Speaker A:I mean I've got a list of you know like I hadn't.
Speaker A:I can do it now because I really hate them today Nat West I tried to do my bank statement because I'm doing my annual accounts and I had a, a fee that I couldn't see what it was so I tried to account, couldn't find them, rung them up.
Speaker A:I'm now two days in to having calls not go back and then I've asked for a cut complaint number because that's the only way to do it and I'm now told I've got to wait five days before I get a complaint number.
Speaker A:And the current myth is that what I've done is I've paid in cash into a branch that's miles away from me on the day where I was somewhere else and I'm going doesn't sound very likely.
Speaker A:He goes no, that's what it was.
Speaker A:And then I looked them up on Trustpilot.
Speaker A:Yeah 1.4 out of 5 British Airways lovely advertising.
Speaker A:Beautiful From a lovely company called uncle.
Speaker A:Everybody loves them, they're great.
Speaker A:Have a cancel praying with British Airways and see what happens and if you're not business class or in a premium things good luck with that one.
Speaker B:I didn't think British Airways have a very good brand at all.
Speaker B:I thought we're all trapped because of air miles.
Speaker B:I read the other day I'd forgotten they were the first to do business class lie down seats.
Speaker A:Yeah but also because they're now owned but I think they're owned by.
Speaker A:They're an international commerce like Virgin's Another one Virgin's in the page 43 of the book if you want to do it.
Speaker A:Got checked by the lawyers what I said about Virgin Virgin Media.
Speaker A:Virgin is the super fast broadband but again another 1.2 on trustworthy.
Speaker A:We're not a customer, are we?
Speaker A:No, I have a game that I do by the way if you want to do this which is the Alternative brand positioning, if you want to play this game.
Speaker A:So you might take Amazon.
Speaker A:Amazon, say we're customer centric and I'll go, what?
Speaker A:We're customer centric, particularly if you like it left behind the bins.
Speaker A:And at some strange note, we can't get hold of US or British Airways.
Speaker A:We fly you all the way around the world and occasionally we don't, and then good luck getting hold of us.
Speaker A:And up until now you just said they couldn't get away with it.
Speaker A:But you've got a large number of platforms.
Speaker A:Ticketmaster with the Oasis gig, right?
Speaker A:And then that's a compromise between the Oasis brand and the Ticketmaster brand and you have to go to court and someone has to take them through.
Speaker B:So you're saying they get away with it because of a sense of Monopoly.
Speaker B:They're the only game in town.
Speaker B:A sense that's impossible to do anything.
Speaker A:About it, or laziness and hassle.
Speaker A:So it works.
Speaker A:It works two ways.
Speaker A:The one thing, it's a Monopoly, so playing fights, you call it in.
Speaker A:Your next, it's not me, it's a guy called Charlie.
Speaker B:Dock crow, Is that how you pronounce it?
Speaker A:E, N, N. It's a guy for Charlie Do.
Speaker A:And it's the basic concept, you're the customer.
Speaker A:But when the, when it goes wrong in a.
Speaker A:Particularly on a technical platform, you've got to sort it.
Speaker A:So my NatWest, it's gone wrong.
Speaker A:And all I want to do is find out what this amount of money is from.
Speaker A:I'm now two and a half days of me ringing them, chasing them.
Speaker A:I then go into this lovely thing called Quora.
Speaker A:If you've ever been on the NatWest app, which got an AI piece of chat.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker A:Which you could ask any question, it will wander off onto some sort of tangent.
Speaker A:So you ask it, could I speak to a human?
Speaker A:It eventually gets that.
Speaker A:And even if you want to complain, if you put complaints into the NatWest app, it takes you to Quora.
Speaker A:If you put complaints into Core, it goes around on a death loop and then if you go back in, it takes you back to Quora.
Speaker B:Any problem you have now, you have to take a whole day of your weekend to get nowhere.
Speaker B:I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a nightmare.
Speaker A:That's the marketing opportunity.
Speaker A:So you see, there's another side of.
Speaker B:That, is that a good AI might fix it.
Speaker B:I had AI do something for the other day and it smashed it straight away.
Speaker B:I asked it and it was like Here it is.
Speaker A:And I was like, so I think that's relevant.
Speaker A:So at the end of the day, you know, I don't care as long as I trust it and it does it and it does it quickly.
Speaker A:I'm fine, I'm really.
Speaker B:AI.
Speaker B:If it answered the phone instantly, bang, bang, bang.
Speaker B:And ask my dad, what did you used to do?
Speaker B:Because I still work.
Speaker B:My dad is 83.
Speaker B:He said there was a shop of everything on the high street.
Speaker B:There was a Thames Water place, whatever, and you go and queue up and you'd say, I've got a problem.
Speaker B:And there was.
Speaker B:So I'm like, why are these companies not making loads and loads of money now?
Speaker A:No, they are, but.
Speaker B:Oh, well, they are.
Speaker B:Well, you know, it must have cost them a lot more to have shops everywhere and have customer service and counters.
Speaker A:So they're all making a fortune.
Speaker A:But it's a limited number of very large tech platforms making a fortune.
Speaker A:So, you know, you want to go and get your insurance.
Speaker A:Well, we used to have an insurance company, an insurance broker.
Speaker A:Now it's one of five comparison sites and they're charging for you to do it.
Speaker A:I'm not, you know, that's a real convenience to me.
Speaker A:You know, at the end of the day, I'm, you know, here goes back to the value proposition.
Speaker A:What's the value proposition?
Speaker A:I don't have to fill out 65 forms, it's stored on me the next day.
Speaker A:So next time I go in, I can then have to put in my dates and how many times I crash my car in and then they will pull off the comparison.
Speaker A:Their business model is based on charging you and ranking you up for what you want to do, but it's a perfectly acceptable value.
Speaker A:So comparison science.
Speaker A:But when it comes to lots of the other ones, increasingly it's like, let's take my other loathing Thames Water.
Speaker A:Well, I'm a Thames Water customer.
Speaker A:They're a monopoly.
Speaker A:I've got no choice.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They really are in certification because they put shit in the water as well.
Speaker A:I've.
Speaker A:I think I've had about six or seven times in my road digging up.
Speaker A:They don't fix leaks.
Speaker A:And worse, now they're round running TV ads to tell me that they're fixing leaks.
Speaker A:I can't go anywhere else.
Speaker A:So I'm really worrying.
Speaker A:You haven't got any money, you're hugely in debt and what you're spending, the limited amount of money you're on is telling me that you're really working hard to fix leaks.
Speaker A:Yes, that's how markets.
Speaker B:It's such a mad world we're living in.
Speaker B:If I'm an SME then do I say.
Speaker B:You're saying hire someone who's been at a big brand.
Speaker A:No, no, I'm not doing that because.
Speaker B:It's such a big topic marketing and as you're.
Speaker B:Everyone's starting at the wrong end of it.
Speaker B:It's very hard to know whether the person in front of you knows it.
Speaker B:But I guess you gave some examples before the sort of things they should be thinking about.
Speaker A:Question.
Speaker A:If you're interviewing, you're better off.
Speaker A:Where did you work for?
Speaker A:What did you do?
Speaker A:How did you solve a problem?
Speaker A:What did you do now?
Speaker A:Depending on the area, you know, if you've got, obviously if your outputs is I need a lot of sales, you know, maybe you're operating in a salesforce platform.
Speaker A:You want somebody who knows how to do that and there's technical things but largely what you want is a mixture of someone's a problem solver who gets it, who can talk sensibly because you.
Speaker A:Every, every brand is different and every market and every problem.
Speaker A:So what you don't want is a generic tick box answer.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you don't want someone because the concern now again the run of the horses.
Speaker B:I want to be.
Speaker B:I want a digital native.
Speaker B:They need to understand that that's not, that's.
Speaker A:No, I'm not that well, particularly of my age.
Speaker A:I, I think that's true.
Speaker A:I think the danger is you start being a digital native.
Speaker A:So if you take people in art, they always work in all sorts of different mediums but they can still paint.
Speaker A:So it's not.
Speaker A:The danger is you go I have to be, you know, acrylic or whatever else it is.
Speaker A:And that's the danger.
Speaker A:And then the danger is, I mean I'll take a great example.
Speaker A:I had a client, I won't say it was but they were, they were targeting people over 65 and I was doing the brand positioning, I was working.
Speaker A:I'd turn up to a meeting once a month where I'd spill over the media company and the media company saying this is what we're doing, we're putting the ads in.
Speaker A:The ads are always in Facebook.
Speaker A:And then every.
Speaker A:I'd get five minutes at the end of the meeting and then they'd always be seemed to do well.
Speaker A:It hasn't worked.
Speaker A:But what we're gonna do is re change the targeting and we're eagle and do this.
Speaker A:And I'm sitting there going Facebook for 75 year olds.
Speaker A:And I'm saying, you know, I shouldn't say this.
Speaker A:You know, why don't you put it on daytime tv?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:No, now you do need to understand it.
Speaker A:I couldn't agree.
Speaker A:And particularly now with data.
Speaker A:But the problem is everybody gets obsessed with all the technologies.
Speaker A:But, but I.
Speaker A:Some of the younger people, it's just amazing, the ability to do stuff, they can find stuff quicker, but it's the skills of critical thinking, it's the skills of problem solving that really matter.
Speaker A:If you can also then add that I'm really, really good at how I use Excel.
Speaker A:I'm really, really good at how I can make a video.
Speaker A:I'm really, really adaptable.
Speaker A:And then the huge one that I think is the biggest issue is going.
Speaker A:Is the ability to work with and deal with people, which is, I think the biggest worry that's out there when it comes to actually having a conversation or being able to engage or work in a team to solve a problem.
Speaker A:I think that's the biggest issue that probably sits for all of them because.
Speaker B:They've got to have a good relationship with everyone in your business, really.
Speaker B:And talk to all the departments.
Speaker A:Yeah, but.
Speaker A:So if you're, if you're the market, a lot of, a lot of B2B's have a marketing function.
Speaker A:Who's creating the brochures for sales?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Well, no one's actually asked the sales what the customer's problem that they need to create a solution for.
Speaker A:So you get this, this tension between marketing and sales because marketing is seen by the sales people as the brochure jockey.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:That is what it even has the.
Speaker A:Website and the brochure jockeys, the marketing people sell these people awkward.
Speaker A:And then in my day, we've just gone out to the pub with them and go, what do you need?
Speaker A:Oh, that's wrong.
Speaker A:Well, we could do that.
Speaker A:That's a great idea.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And off you go.
Speaker B:So now we're hiding behind our machines, emailing each other, getting frustrated.
Speaker B:And do you think what's the difference in terms of the, the different style of.
Speaker B:You mentioned B2B, but versus doing consumer goods, is that a very different st.
Speaker A:Well, they're different, obviously.
Speaker A:Different challenges.
Speaker A:So in consumer goods, it's much more defined, you know, more of your audience.
Speaker A:You, you sort of know your retail channels, you've got sales products, you, to a certain extent, you, you, you know, you're in a market for something else and you know, you're after a consumer, so you're.
Speaker A:It's a different way of doing it in B2B1, you've got very, very different propositions, got very different business models.
Speaker A:So you might be doing SAS or you might be doing something else.
Speaker A:So it's different.
Speaker A:The bottom line on what a brand is and what your problem is and what the solution is is still the same.
Speaker A:How you will promote it could well be entirely differently.
Speaker A:So you may be doing an event because you're a B2B customer.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You may be doing, you know, tests and pilots with people.
Speaker A:It will always depend on what you want to do.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And then for values, you should have them, but maybe they don't matter these days.
Speaker B:It's sort of your conclusion.
Speaker A:I think you should really have them.
Speaker A:I, I, if I'm honest, and they're now totally gamed.
Speaker A:So what you've ended up with, we've got them, we've ticked them off, we've brought in somebody who doesn't know what they mean, who's put a word on it.
Speaker A:So I'll give you an example.
Speaker A:Lloyds has got one of its values is trust.
Speaker A:And I have a run in with Lloyds over a number of years and Lloyds has also, I think about put 2 billion on its balance sheet to allow for the fact it might be miss selling car loans.
Speaker A:So on the one hand it's got values of trust.
Speaker A:On the other hand, somehow the way that the total business works doesn't mean the people in it are untrustworthy, but somehow that's allowed to happen.
Speaker A:Meta, who does Facebook and Instagram has all sorts of things about caring about the consumer and safety and it will sell these things.
Speaker A:Yeah, we invest loads of money in such and such pause liability.
Speaker A:So it's the, you know, it's like a politician spin.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they get away with it because it's within the court case and they've got a lot of money.
Speaker A:Eventually, I think Meta may be getting there now because you're now seeing in various countries banning social media for certain people.
Speaker A:There's a court case where I think a thousand people got class action suit going through in the States.
Speaker A:So I think there's now an issue where what might wipe them out and undermine them, even though making an absolute fortune.
Speaker B:It won't wipe them out though.
Speaker B:Well, if enough people go against Facebook, we're talking about.
Speaker A:Yeah, but if enough people go, you know, they might be regulated.
Speaker A:So I mean, I, I, I would personally, I've just, I would find them so much for all the breaches that they would change is what I would do.
Speaker A:I'd take a Stackload of money off them because I think that's how you're going to get them to change, because they haven't got a moral compass, in my view, to change.
Speaker A:Dunn, if you know, you know the stuff about the fraud.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Well, tell me about that.
Speaker A:There's a Reuters report that says that I think Facebook make, I think it's 14 to 15 billion out of fraud and scams.
Speaker B:What do you mean?
Speaker A:They make out they're actually making money from people who are advertising frauds and scams.
Speaker B:Oh, right.
Speaker A:What they say is we try and detect it automatically, blah, blah.
Speaker A:And then what we do if it goes wrong, we will then remove it.
Speaker A:But the factor at which it goes wrong is when we think it's 95% wrong, that's when we remove it.
Speaker A:Before 95%, you know what they do?
Speaker A:They just charge them more for the advertising.
Speaker B:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker B:They put the price up.
Speaker A:Lovely values.
Speaker B:Well, did someone years ago said this to me about America, that in America, people, and I don't mean to offend any Americans, but people sort of talk a lot about believing in God, but what they really believe in is money.
Speaker B:And your priest is your lawyer because there's no ethics to how you make money in America.
Speaker B:But it must be legally.
Speaker B:But no, I'm sort of getting some somewhere else.
Speaker B:That in a sense is this sort of.
Speaker B:These big companies, they only care about making money.
Speaker B:That's the narrative that will be played here.
Speaker B:And maybe you could argue it from Thames Water, but it's not so much my experience of doing business here.
Speaker B:Do you think it's slightly American?
Speaker B:You know, money, money for any reason?
Speaker A:I think it's harsh in America.
Speaker A:I think you've got more global international companies, you've got some very decent people in all sorts of corporations.
Speaker B:True.
Speaker A:I think there is a separate thing.
Speaker A:We've got a culture over time that you report into stocks on a quarterly basis that that's what you're doing.
Speaker A:So your objective becomes hitting the number.
Speaker A:And if you don't hit your number.
Speaker A:So over time your moral compass gets tested more and more because you can't fail because.
Speaker A:And then that's the reality that you've got.
Speaker B:Because you've got stocks and shares, because.
Speaker A:Your family relies, you may be out because of what you want to do.
Speaker A:So I think that I'm all like this.
Speaker A:We all, we were, you know, no one, you know, I, I, I, I'm quite friendly with those people in the Serious Fraud Office.
Speaker A:And corruption doesn't start with people being corrupt.
Speaker A:It starts with someone, little thing, and then that goes up and then someone will come back in and go, I saw you do this.
Speaker A:If you see all the scamming, the scamming things are basically industrialized.
Speaker A:I, I did some research in, I did a lot of research in organized crime.
Speaker A:At some point.
Speaker A:I won't tell you why I was, I was bizarrely in Brazil and in Rio and I sat in this group and then someone was chatting about how it was organized in the fellas and that they had a parking space that you couldn't sit into and everything else.
Speaker A:It.
Speaker A:And they were chatting about organized crime.
Speaker A:And it was the first moment that I'd actually heard the word organized and realized it meant organized.
Speaker A:I actually had always heard the word phrase organized crime.
Speaker A:And so what you've now got is you've got people who are in, you know, call centers with targets.
Speaker A:If you're.
Speaker A:I think it's.
Speaker A:Your phone's likely to be sold in London every seven minutes, you've got parcel theft going on.
Speaker A:That'll be organized crime.
Speaker A:So they're, they'll hire people and they'll do stuff and, and they're literally looking to ways to exploit the system to go through.
Speaker B:True.
Speaker B:Do you think all this gaming will.
Speaker B:You'll lose in the end if everyone's gaming the system or.
Speaker A:My worry is the problem is it gets so bad and it gets so dim.
Speaker A:So what you end up trying to fix, you can't fix.
Speaker A:I watched a documentary the other day on Tinder and really fascinating.
Speaker A:And it started off and it was done.
Speaker A:So Tinder just started off with, we're going to put dating, solving a problem.
Speaker A:People were mobile or mobile and how do I do?
Speaker A:So I made it, they made it friction free.
Speaker A:So it's like three swipes.
Speaker A:And then they, they made it popular.
Speaker A:And then, and then it grew and it grew and it grew and it was just taken off at a level that they didn't know, but they hadn't monetized it yet.
Speaker A:So then they got bought by a company who monetized them.
Speaker A:And then in order to monetize, you start to gamify.
Speaker A:So they started to put premiums in it.
Speaker A:So they started to a mixture, there was a tier, subs and premium.
Speaker A:And then also they would do things that pushed you up so you could buy like tokens that made you get more people to like you.
Speaker A:Everything else, no way is that what they did.
Speaker B:Because I met my wife through Tinder and there was none of that.
Speaker B:It was just simple back then.
Speaker A:And and then on top of that, it then became.
Speaker A:Because it's an algorithm where by the natural default, the more attractive you are, you're more likely to get swiped.
Speaker A:Then all the fraudsters and Gammas came in, because now I've got a platform that doesn't really have the security where you're getting a personal relationship with someone.
Speaker B:I buy, I get a picture of a very attractive man, and there you.
Speaker A:Are going out with.
Speaker A:I know Justin Timberlake, who knew that he lived in Croydon.
Speaker B:Wait, wait, the Tinder did this gamification?
Speaker B:Tinder has struggled, hasn't it?
Speaker B:Is that your point as well?
Speaker A:It made a lot of money and everything else, but then it's got back to value.
Speaker A:So whereas, you know.
Speaker A:So you'll have a.
Speaker A:You know, you'll have.
Speaker A:Someone had written down the value.
Speaker A:You know, if you've ever read Animal Farm from George Orwell.
Speaker B:Well, I've never actually read it because.
Speaker A:It's a very short book.
Speaker A:So the story of Animal Farm is the animals take over from the farmer, who's the man.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And they write up a set of values up on it, right?
Speaker A:And among the values is, I think there's seven or eight of them.
Speaker A:One of them is four legs good, two leads bad.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:And the other one is all animals created equal.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And then over time, the pigs, which is Napoleon and I can't think of her squealer, sort of become the equivalent of the man.
Speaker A:And then towards the end, there was.
Speaker A:They're all equal.
Speaker A:They started to be the bosses.
Speaker A:And then at the end, they're all walking on two legs.
Speaker A:And then what you see is they've changed all the rules.
Speaker A:So it goes from being the values four legs good, two legs bad changes to four legs good, two legs better.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:It changes from all animals are equal values, changes to some animals are more equal than other.
Speaker A:Very, very short book.
Speaker A:One of my gags is most technical companies are in their version of Animal Farm.
Speaker A:The question is, how far are they in it at the moment?
Speaker A:I'm pretty sure, in my view, meta's quite near the back.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:As in the end of the book.
Speaker A:Well, in the bit we're rewriting, if you want.
Speaker A:If you want another good game, go back and originally see what OpenAI's values were four years ago, what they're now.
Speaker B:Yes, Someone told me about this.
Speaker A:It was all the democracy.
Speaker A:It's all for the people.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's called Open Eye AI.
Speaker B:It was like full access to our.
Speaker A:Car, and now we're owned by Microsoft To a large extent, yeah.
Speaker A:We aren't on conspiracy, technical conspiracy theory show, but values put it in.
Speaker A:Tech companies are very interesting one to have a conversation with.
Speaker B:So before we crack on with the show, please consider subscribing to this wonderful channel and to our mailing list at.
Speaker B:Without BS.com you get free weekly classes from the best minds in business and free downloadable resources to strip away the jargon and give you the real world lessons.
Speaker B:You don't get a business school.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:Do you think therefore, if I'm an SME and I'm hoping to grow, I should try and hang on to my values?
Speaker B:Is that the point in there?
Speaker B:Is that the moral of that.
Speaker A:It's more straightforward than that.
Speaker A:Typically what happens, I do a lot of this.
Speaker A:So a big thing that I do different is I, I largely work with boards of company, I facilitate their brands positioning.
Speaker A:So I don't come in and go away, I sit with them and go, what?
Speaker A:And you just, you just come in.
Speaker B:With the T6 thing.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker A:Explain to me what your market is and like I'll go into your business like you've got all these things that you do.
Speaker A:But if you were to explain to me what the.
Speaker A:I'd sort of do that.
Speaker A:Okay, what, what an exercise that would do on values would be.
Speaker A:And this is that easy.
Speaker A:I get a piece of paper and it's got load of adjectives on it, okay.
Speaker A:And if, let's say you've got seven people on the board, right, and they've got their existing values.
Speaker A:And I said, I don't want you to look at the moment, I just want you to take this piece of paper individually and I want you to mark three words on it that you think are really, really what you stand for.
Speaker A:Then I want to mark one word that you don't without talking to anybody.
Speaker A:And then we put it in the middle and we pull it up and we've got all these words.
Speaker A:And then someone goes, innovation.
Speaker A:You go.
Speaker A:And then you go, what do you mean by innovation?
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:And you'll find somebody else do it.
Speaker A:So what you then quite quickly get to good news.
Speaker A:There may be three or things that you all agree with.
Speaker A:And now what you've got is what it means.
Speaker A:So you've got, okay, we stand for that and we grew.
Speaker A:That's good.
Speaker A:You will also typically find massive disagreement on other bits.
Speaker A:And then you'll find some over here.
Speaker A:Now imagine you've got seven people in a company who don't know what they and can't agree what they stand for going out and doing it.
Speaker A:You wouldn't have it in a football team.
Speaker A:You wouldn't have it in a.
Speaker A:We had it at football team the other day where.
Speaker A:I remember they had a fight between themselves and one of them got sent off.
Speaker A:I can't remember.
Speaker A:Chelsea or something that.
Speaker A:So all you do is get that and then what you're trying to do is turn it into a sentence.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And then what you've really got is just, you know, common glue and grip that you say to people, we're all about innovation.
Speaker A:Or.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But you've got a load of stuff now where people say you.
Speaker A:This is.
Speaker A:Someone say, we're all about collaboration.
Speaker A:And then you go, so why is it you never have meetings with people in different departments?
Speaker A:We're all about innovation.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker A:In.
Speaker A:There's a study by MIT in America where they.
Speaker A:They.
Speaker A:They evaluated all the values.
Speaker A:I love this.
Speaker A:I went off and they measured them all.
Speaker A:Do you know the number one value all American companies claim at 63%?
Speaker A:I think it is integrity.
Speaker B:Integrity.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's a great value.
Speaker A:What does it mean, though?
Speaker A:I mean, I've got integrity.
Speaker A:Boeing's my other favorite one.
Speaker A:There's a great people making an absolute fortune.
Speaker A:Edinburgh show sending up marketing bullshit.
Speaker A:I wrote this bit up before they did it in their sketch.
Speaker A:But Boeing's the classic.
Speaker A:They did a great sketch on Boeing.
Speaker B:The Australians, you mean.
Speaker B:We've had them on the show.
Speaker A:They're brilliant.
Speaker A:So they do this wonderful sketch on Boeing and this is all true.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So Boeing, which has literally killed hundreds of people with planes that crash.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And left people stranded in space.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I didn't know that.
Speaker A:They're pretty consistent.
Speaker A:The next.
Speaker B:But it was always, well, not Boeing on.
Speaker B:It's not Boeing.
Speaker B:I'm not going.
Speaker A:Yeah, so.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So they're three of their values now.
Speaker A:Integrity, safety and transparency.
Speaker A:I think you say transport transparency, which the Wankonomics buyer goes, look, the door fell off.
Speaker A:You can see outside.
Speaker B:Now.
Speaker A:Turn that back.
Speaker A:There's.
Speaker A:Whilst they're knowing that and they're in court as well, and they've omitted various things for doing it.
Speaker A:So there's been a board of people who've known that had those values written up and covered it up.
Speaker A:Up.
Speaker A:Ultimately, what's happened to Boeing stock has tanked.
Speaker A:They've lost all their trust, they've lost all their business.
Speaker A:So going back to the values thing.
Speaker A:But it didn't happen overnight.
Speaker A:It happened because there used to be an engineering company and then they became a multinational.
Speaker A:Then they Outsourced.
Speaker A:So I think it's like, you know, the planes are not built in one place.
Speaker A:It's to cut costs and then it becomes a system.
Speaker A:And we're seeing a lot of that at the moment.
Speaker A:You think, you know, the number of occasions where something's gone out with technical things, you've outsourced it and everything else on it.
Speaker A:So, so that's the other issue you've got, you know, you can you deliver and control on it.
Speaker B:But what would be your tips therefore out of all of this?
Speaker B:If I'm trying to raise money, I'm building a business but I'm going to seek investment.
Speaker B:What are your tips to.
Speaker A:Well, so I, the, the startup stuff's really interesting.
Speaker A:So I've been doing the London Business School startup program for about five years.
Speaker A:And the thing that was interesting about it, I was brought in by an investor because they had lots of marketing professors.
Speaker A:And then the investors going, we just don't understand two things.
Speaker A:There's lots I don't stand.
Speaker A:But the key thing you need is obviously great idea and talented people, that's it.
Speaker A:Going back to what the products are.
Speaker A:But then where they often fail to raise investment and to make money is they miss out on being able to deliver something called a value proposition is the first thing.
Speaker A:And a value proposition is where yes, I know what it is and then you go to go on then.
Speaker A:And then they struggle and then you go tell me what your one is.
Speaker A:And then they struggle.
Speaker A:So it's a really common thing.
Speaker A:And this is one of the other things books goes, everybody sort of says things and no, no where they are.
Speaker A:So a value proposition is two things.
Speaker A:It's what problem do you solve for your customer?
Speaker A:And the benefit, not the feature, the benefit.
Speaker A:And then second part of it, what's the quantified value that you get?
Speaker A:So if I go back to.
Speaker A:Let's give an example, let's take the Sony Walkman.
Speaker A:It's one of the ones I use in there.
Speaker A:When the Sony Walkman came out, everybody had their stereos at home.
Speaker A:You had a portable radio, it was the only thing that was small.
Speaker A:But you took cassette sets were huge.
Speaker A:So the Sony Walkman allowed you to take music portably.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it also allowed you to have music that you chose.
Speaker A:So this the value proposition which is, you know, it's your personal choice of music on the move.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:So that's really what you've got, QuickBooks, you know, which is so accounting.
Speaker A:So QuickBooks value proposition is you are non accountant.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you're not a technical accountant, but you need to do your books.
Speaker A:Your problem is that I'm not accountant and if I hire a current, it's going to cost me money.
Speaker A:Do I want something that's easy and trustworthy?
Speaker A:So they've decided of product for somebody who's a non accountant to be there that plugs into their system.
Speaker A:Hence all the value proposition would probably something along the lines of accountancy for non accountants with me.
Speaker A:So that's the first thing.
Speaker A:If you get that nailed and investors all instantly, I'm doing one at the moment with somebody and investors are instantly going to go, there's the issue, right?
Speaker A:There's the market opportunities.
Speaker A:So that's the first one.
Speaker A:The second thing, and this is that then you need to do the effort at looking at the market and the competition.
Speaker A:It is absolutely scary how many people, including existing business, just don't even go and see what their competitors are doing.
Speaker A:Don't go into the shops, don't meet the audience.
Speaker A:So if you understand that, you then do.
Speaker A:The other thing that matters is called your brand positioning.
Speaker A:And to do it in simple way, imagine there's three circles, right?
Speaker A:There's a circle which is what does your customer want?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What do you want?
Speaker A:That's circle number one.
Speaker A:The second thing is what do you do brilliantly?
Speaker A:And then the third thing, what does your competitors do brilliantly?
Speaker A:You want ideally, something that you do brilliantly, the customer wants that your competitor doesn't do.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:What you don't want to do is something you do brilliant, the customer doesn't want.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's quite a lot of that going around.
Speaker A:What you really don't want to do is let the competitor have something that does brilliant the customer really wants.
Speaker A:And then where most people spend their most time, they spend the bit in the middle, which is doing what everybody else wants in the same way.
Speaker A:And those two things.
Speaker A:Now you've got a very simple story to invest, which goes, this is the market, this is the problem, this is why someone will buy from us, this is how we're going to do it.
Speaker A:And by the way, this is why when it comes to the real world, where someone might copy, steal, borrow, they're going to choose us.
Speaker A:That's those two more than anything.
Speaker A:And it matters just as much for an existing business, but it might as doubly match for an investor because otherwise they won't get the money.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's quite interesting.
Speaker B:It's one of those things too.
Speaker B:You've got to get the phrases really clearly defined.
Speaker B:In your head to play the game almost because they're just value proposition.
Speaker B:It's, it suggests something rather than go.
Speaker A:Back to what people think.
Speaker A:Marketing.
Speaker A:Everybody gets worried about the words.
Speaker A:It's the meaning at the end day, you hire someone to get the words right.
Speaker B:Well, everyone almost, as you well know, almost everyone thinks marketing is either sales or advertising.
Speaker B:One of those two things.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you get so bothered about the word and you go, that's really interesting.
Speaker A:What does that mean?
Speaker A:I mean, someone said something to the.
Speaker A:That was.
Speaker A:There was a post on LinkedIn the other day, someone's looking for new markets.
Speaker A:And I know lots of marketing directors.
Speaker A:And he said, what we want is a full stat marketing director.
Speaker A:And I just went, what the fuck, Scooby?
Speaker A:What does that mean?
Speaker A:And then it came to mind.
Speaker A:It's like seeing extra cheese.
Speaker A:But it's one of those phrases, sort of.
Speaker A:I know what it means.
Speaker A:It means actually, why loathe.
Speaker A:I'm really, really good at all the digital stuff.
Speaker A:You go, okay, so what you want to do that, but it's.
Speaker A:So what you've got is somebody who's exceptionally good at doing digital execution.
Speaker A:That's not a problem.
Speaker A:But it's not to my mind, what, what is really beneficial to a business.
Speaker A:And that's where that's the biggest problem.
Speaker A:If you, if you don't work out what you are, what you market, then when you come to advertise or raise money or do anything, you're, you're just always like, you know, it's like having, you know, that Eric Morcom thing, you know, I've got all the notes, but just not necessarily playing all the notes and not so in the right place.
Speaker A:You.
Speaker A:Yes, but if you get that right, it's much more compelling.
Speaker A:It's much more straightforward to do.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker B:So effectively an SME should find someone to help them solve those two things, the value proposition and the.
Speaker B:What was the second?
Speaker A:The value proposition?
Speaker A:There was brand positioning.
Speaker A:So one is, what's the benefit to the audience?
Speaker A:And where's the.
Speaker A:What's the quantified value?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the second one is against the competitors.
Speaker B:Where do you sit?
Speaker A:Where do you sit?
Speaker A:The consumer wants.
Speaker A:That's just you that somebody else doesn't have.
Speaker B:How about creating a market?
Speaker B:Quite often with a startup, you, they, they're doing something, you go, this is brilliant, but you've got to create a market.
Speaker B:It's that sort of.
Speaker B:What's the old thing like anchovies in this country, we eat them in a certain way, don't we?
Speaker B:We like them, you know, in oil, in a tiny in.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's in lots of countries they serve anxious very differently.
Speaker B:But in the food market, you can't persuade the British consumer.
Speaker B:There's a different way of doing it,.
Speaker A:You know, so it always depends.
Speaker A:So I go, so let's take pims.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:PIMS has managed to position itself as a UK brand that's largely in the summer, particularly in London, about two weeks around Wimbledon.
Speaker A:So it's done a great job in positioning itself, but then it's completely shrunk.
Speaker B:Its market to and seasonal.
Speaker A:It's not now more Aperol Spritz?
Speaker B:No, all year round.
Speaker A:All year round, yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:Yeah, it's nicer than Aperol Spritz argument.
Speaker A:I mean, one of my jobs, when I go and work in Mexico, I have to bring four or five large pins over there because it's a little cult in Mexico.
Speaker B:That's what they became.
Speaker B:They should.
Speaker B:They should have been.
Speaker B:They should have thought it broader.
Speaker A:It's difficult, I mean, because it's.
Speaker A:Sometimes it's changing stuff and I mean that's what you've got to solve.
Speaker A:You can't mean.
Speaker A:Lego is very interesting because Lego used to be just bricks and then Lego decided its positioning was creativity and imagination and then it's taken that into films and movies and everything else.
Speaker A:It depends, you know, you've got other ones.
Speaker A:Well, we.
Speaker A:Well, you like when I used to work on BMW, you know, what would you do if you.
Speaker A:It's a great game.
Speaker A:How far could you stretch the brand?
Speaker A:So if I took Corona, how far could I stretch it?
Speaker A:Or if I did, you know, Apple's very interesting where it does movies now or something else in it.
Speaker A:Where do you sit?
Speaker A:Yeah, but that's part of the job.
Speaker B:What do you think about the.
Speaker B:The influences who are just sort of creating these brands?
Speaker B:Say I'll do a chocolate, I'll do Mr.
Speaker B:Beast chocolate.
Speaker A:Which apparently people tell me I got a lot of respect for them, to be honest.
Speaker A:I 1 I've met a load of them and they're proper entrepreneurs who work their guts out.
Speaker B:I bet they do these youtubers.
Speaker B:It's incredible what they do and they,.
Speaker A:To use a consultant's phrase, they eat what they kill and they work really hard at it.
Speaker A:I think it's very interesting.
Speaker A:A number of them are more trusted now by.
Speaker A:Than other people, which is to their credit goes back to.
Speaker A:They've got brands and values that they need to do.
Speaker A:I'm a very good friend.
Speaker A:Not A very good friend.
Speaker A:I'm a friend of a guy called Ben Grubbs.
Speaker A:And Ben Grubbs is used to be head of YouTube influencers and now he's a venture, private equity and he raised 45 million to invest in something called Good, Good Golf.
Speaker B:Good Good Golf.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:If you play golf, good golf is.
Speaker A:Four guys are massively into golf who've got a YouTube channel.
Speaker A:It's spread out.
Speaker A:They're now in Dick Sporting Goods, everything else in it.
Speaker A:So they raise, I think 45 million.
Speaker A:They've now got events that they're involved in.
Speaker A:They've now creating their own shows.
Speaker A:You have Bryson DeChambeau, the famous golfer on there for two hours.
Speaker A:And what's interesting, they've taken fans to golf, whereas golf was always for the aficionados.
Speaker A:So, you know, we go that to, you know, the super bowl in America, which is now the big ads.
Speaker A:Well, most people won't see the super ad, bowl ad in the Super Bowl.
Speaker A:They'll see it on the YouTube, the Waitrose ad, which.
Speaker A:The Waitrose Christmas campaign was absolutely fantastic.
Speaker A:But they, they did a Super bowl ad.
Speaker A:No, but they've done a big long commercial that you'll see on YouTube first.
Speaker A:So things change.
Speaker B:But what do you.
Speaker B:Because this is this argument that now it's the, these people, these, these influences where you start and then they tell you about a product or.
Speaker B:And then you learn about a brand.
Speaker B:This is this sort of supposed reversal that we would.
Speaker B:I mean, it's mad what's happening.
Speaker A:It goes, it depends and it's a yes and no.
Speaker A:So that may well be a way that some discussed it and you might put that in your armor because it's a sensible thing to do.
Speaker A:You know, we've done this forever in brands, you know, so, you know, go back to Burberry, which is very famous historic British brand.
Speaker A:Burberry started off was a military brand and it's all a technology brand.
Speaker A:Gabardine, the raincoats.
Speaker A:It was then largely sold to soldiers in the first and Second World War.
Speaker A:And then they changed it, made it popular by influencers.
Speaker A:Yeah, but their influences were people like Humpy Bogart who wore it in Casablanca.
Speaker A:And then they lost their way.
Speaker A:And now.
Speaker A:So things change.
Speaker A:I think it's really, it's open minded.
Speaker A:I loathe the fact that just a magic answer, it depends.
Speaker A:So I, and I can really see, see on certain brands and certain products, the right influence could be really good.
Speaker A:I'm not for the magic answer, which is what worries me.
Speaker B:Well, I guess part of the question is if, if you're whatever business but let's assume you're an SME, how important is that your CEO has a very public profile of some kind, has a YouTube channel, has is out there and about there in a way that can.
Speaker B:Because if you look at so many of the successful brands that's, that's common, you know, whether we're doing Apple, Steve Jobs or we're doing Elon or we're doing video.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:There's these people, isn't it that's sort of attached to them and it's like who's bigger.
Speaker B:I'm not sure whether you, you what you think you know, if you see who's more famous, it's almost.
Speaker A:Again it depends.
Speaker A:I mean I think the days.
Speaker A:Well, I think it's two bits.
Speaker A:One, if you're an important part of what you're doing, you're an opinion former or you shape a business and you're part of its values, then it would be sensible to expose it if you can.
Speaker A:The downside of that, it also exposes you so it puts you more in the brains of when it goes wrong.
Speaker A:So let's.
Speaker A:We all remember the chief executive Nat west with Nigel Farage and his COOTS account.
Speaker B:Oh yeah.
Speaker A:So disappeared quite rapidly.
Speaker A:So you.
Speaker A:So it's it, it's a double edged sword.
Speaker B:You're right.
Speaker B:She had a more public Persona than a lot of the previous CF CEOs.
Speaker B:She was a woman, she was very sort of vocal.
Speaker B:I felt like she was out there a bit more even before she got into trouble.
Speaker A:But she also just made basic mistakes.
Speaker A:So she, you know, but, and that's what's really difficult now.
Speaker A:It's much more volatile.
Speaker A:So in the past you would have less likely to be discovered.
Speaker A:It would go wrong now.
Speaker A:It'd be quite quick.
Speaker A:People are gunning for you, your competitors are gunning for you.
Speaker A:I'm trying to find fault with you.
Speaker A:So I think it's really, really hard.
Speaker A:That's the problem.
Speaker A:So you're, you're sitting there and you, you might want to do something.
Speaker A:You've now got a double guess when you do it, even though you've done it very rationally and very logically, somebody else will turn it a different way and that's really, really hard now.
Speaker A:Cause it's not that, it's not that you've done anything wrong, it's not that you haven' evaluated it or it's just that someone will choose to cherry pick what they've done in a way that's gone.
Speaker B:I think the other thing that I'm picking up though is your values can change a lot.
Speaker B:Whether you're talking about Burberry or Apple.
Speaker B:Just because you're going to set your values now, it's okay for them to radically change over time.
Speaker A:Not really.
Speaker B:He said Burberry was military then it.
Speaker A:Was this difference between values and what the brand is.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So Burbies may have been innovative and one of the values maybe were a technology brand.
Speaker A:One of the core things in the Burpee brand is the way weather.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So ironically they've gone back to a middle language whatever the weather is Burberry.
Speaker A:So they've gone back to some of their roots.
Speaker A:Normally you would avoid doing it.
Speaker A:It doesn't mean you don't.
Speaker A:But once you start go back to person in a pub, you know there's at some point people grow up or they change and that's fine.
Speaker A:But because they're just growing brands in.
Speaker B:A way it's this consistency thing and you.
Speaker B:They're a little bit sensitive to.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:To.
Speaker B:It's a superpower if it's consistent and valid.
Speaker B:If it's Mercedes Benz and you just think, think it works or it's high quality, it becomes synonymous, isn't it?
Speaker B:So you should be careful mucking around with that much.
Speaker A:So I've got, I've had, I've done last year a major client who wanted to change its name and may or may not research it.
Speaker A:But you start off with him why?
Speaker A:And then you just ask question how aware of people.
Speaker A:Because if you have to start again.
Speaker B:And people really underestimate that.
Speaker B:They think I'll be all right, they'll still find us.
Speaker B:But the, the name, you know, the brand value you have after 10 years of business.
Speaker A:But it also goes.
Speaker A:There's a. I'll go the other one.
Speaker A:Have you heard of Hermes?
Speaker B:Actually I read it in your notes saying Hermes but you mean the logistics brand who were terrible.
Speaker A:Who was so bad that they changed their name to Ivory.
Speaker A:And then because everybody knew they changed referee they were sort of like send up puns.
Speaker A:Now every parcel Ivory parcel is late.
Speaker B:What's your favorite?
Speaker B:What's your best bit of branding and marketing you've seen?
Speaker A:I'm a big fan of what Channel 4 did with the Paralympics.
Speaker A:If you think about it, we have had a culture and societal change and attitude reigns about.
Speaker A:About disability as it was then called.
Speaker A:Channel 4 took something that no one wanted to watch, no one was cared about it and they repositioned it and they Repositioned those people, superhumans and everything they've done.
Speaker A:And they've fundamentally changed attitudes, values in society to a level that I think very, very few people do agree.
Speaker B:It was an amazing campaign.
Speaker B: It helps that the: Speaker B:All my friends are bitching.
Speaker B:It was a terrible thing.
Speaker B:We're going to mess it up.
Speaker B:But it went really well, the Olympics, the first bit.
Speaker B:But then the Paralympics came, so we were hungry for more.
Speaker B:And as you say, Channel 4 smashed it out of the park and they used the Public Enemy song, which I thought was amazing, in the advert.
Speaker B:You know, they just picked a piece of verse.
Speaker B:I mean, the power of music.
Speaker A:It's how.
Speaker A:Well, this is where people don't realize, talented, creative people.
Speaker A:It's like it's.
Speaker A:Oh, it just picked that well.
Speaker A:And the way that they were shot, it's just genius.
Speaker A:This is what creative people do, stuff that people don't realize how hard it is.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:Oh, I love that.
Speaker A:It's true.
Speaker B:It changed.
Speaker B:It changed the narrative.
Speaker B:It came along and just blew the hinges off.
Speaker B:Off.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Amazing.
Speaker B:And apparently every Olympic since around the world has changed.
Speaker B:It's not just a change in Britain.
Speaker B:It had an impact on how everyone's.
Speaker A:Looked and then that's an envy culture.
Speaker A:So it's quite interesting that, you know, countries that didn't enter people.
Speaker A:Well, there's the, the.
Speaker A:So now you.
Speaker A:Oh, America's suddenly not on top of a league table now, hang on now.
Speaker A:I needed to change the culture to do that.
Speaker A:So it's.
Speaker A:It's quite.
Speaker A:In China's the same.
Speaker A:So I think it's a very interesting thing.
Speaker B:Any others jump to mine?
Speaker A:You've got to admire what Apple have done over a very long period of time.
Speaker B:It's a cult.
Speaker A:Yeah, I don't think it's a cult.
Speaker A:I'm Apple for everything, but I don't think I'm a cult.
Speaker A:I'm more of a.
Speaker A:You know, I happen to have it and reluctantly.
Speaker B:Well, it's.
Speaker B:My music producer friend said to me many, many years ago, it's like.
Speaker B:Because it fucking works, you know, and there's an attitude at which there's sort of a stability to it that by controlling all of the manufacturing, I think.
Speaker A:That's something they did later.
Speaker A:So I think we'll go back to all the things.
Speaker A:Sort of the first thing that we all forget that they had computers and then they rethought computers they did a marvelous job basically making you think PCs were dull.
Speaker A:I mean, which everybody forgets.
Speaker A:You know.
Speaker A:There was a market that was.
Speaker A:There was a box and it was how much the box was and it was.
Speaker A:Had a computer and a chip and Apple went in.
Speaker A:Now we're going to reposition the market and it's going to be easier to use.
Speaker B:We had a first Macintosh in our family.
Speaker B:It was a big deal.
Speaker A:I did my first market research for the Tyneside Cinema using.
Speaker A:Using a Mac.
Speaker B:I remember the adverts.
Speaker B:Really exciting.
Speaker B:There was like a motorbike with a computer on the back of it or something.
Speaker B:It was one of the geniuses of.
Speaker A:Steve Jobs is what if we had more than one font?
Speaker A:Which is.
Speaker A:Because all.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:All the computers had the same font.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's all these little bits that he did.
Speaker A:So I thought that was really interesting.
Speaker A:And there's a wonderful campaign.
Speaker A:You haven't seen it, which is.
Speaker A:It's got.
Speaker A:Which goes back a while called Mac versus PC, which was done in the us, Done in here.
Speaker A:And it's just the.
Speaker A:Just taking the piss out of PCs is.
Speaker A:You know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because it was really dull or something.
Speaker A:Well, they were just.
Speaker A:They were just making the point.
Speaker A:For example, you've got a virus protector.
Speaker A:We don't have virus.
Speaker A:But it was done.
Speaker A:The mat guy was all like with a T shirt and really cool PC bloke was.
Speaker A:And they did.
Speaker A:It was.
Speaker A:What's the name of them two comedians over here.
Speaker A:And they did that.
Speaker A:And then to then go to another layer of where they invented the ipod.
Speaker A:And the ipod.
Speaker A:There was all the other stuff.
Speaker A:But then they owned it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And then they had the courage to kill the ipod.
Speaker A:Kill it.
Speaker A:And then they put it into a phone.
Speaker A:And if you see the opening launch of the thing where.
Speaker A:Value proposition.
Speaker A:You've got a phone.
Speaker A:Well, what we've got is a phone that's also a.
Speaker A:An ipod that's also an Internet connector.
Speaker A:Great value proposition.
Speaker A:And then the leap of.
Speaker A:Particularly when they killed BlackBerry, where we don't forget the logic was the other part of it was.
Speaker A:Well, suddenly a BlackBerry was.
Speaker A:Half your screen was a keyboard.
Speaker A:And then suddenly.
Speaker A:I mean.
Speaker A:And that goes back to.
Speaker A:They're a good example to me because.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's a slight nutter.
Speaker A:But what's the product?
Speaker A:What's the problem?
Speaker A:Obsession about it.
Speaker A:And then position it really well.
Speaker A:And then, you know, they've largely.
Speaker A:They've then carried on doing it.
Speaker A:I struggle with where they're going next on the basis we are on, you know, I mean, I can do the branding meeting now for the next iPhone.
Speaker A:Do you want to know what's going to be coming called iPhone?
Speaker A:Yeah, iPhone 18.
Speaker A:Wild guess.
Speaker B:What's the mistakes people make again and again and again and again?
Speaker A:Oh, there loads of them.
Speaker A:The common ones is being generic.
Speaker B:People are generic.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:Is that.
Speaker B:Is that the committee.
Speaker A:It's just you end up positioning yourself in, you know, I'm a refreshing beer.
Speaker A:Okay, great.
Speaker A:Yeah, great.
Speaker A:Fantastic.
Speaker A:Good.
Speaker A:So that, that.
Speaker A:And that's really common.
Speaker A:Or I'm.
Speaker A:I'm a. I'm one of the top.
Speaker A:I'm a lawyer, a law firm that's really, really good at divorce.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So you're in the market.
Speaker A:Why are you better at or different at or whatever?
Speaker A:So that's one classic one, is to say you're number one.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Number one's a position, not a positioning.
Speaker A:And the very famous one is a position, not a positioning.
Speaker A:It's not telling you why you're better, it's telling me that you happen to be first.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Another one is basically forgetting that you're not the audience.
Speaker A:At most, most Chief execs, most CEOs, I would advise that they stick on their laptop inside as they open it up.
Speaker A:Remember, you're not the customer.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they do that.
Speaker B:And you need to create a customer model, I assume, do you.
Speaker B:Is that a good idea?
Speaker A:I think you need to understand it.
Speaker A:And then there's a different thing.
Speaker A:You may want to understand their journey and how they make decisions and everything.
Speaker A:And you can over complicate this.
Speaker A:And in a digital world, you can see what they're doing and everything else.
Speaker B:What do you think of that, you know, when look up postcodes and know everything about people.
Speaker A:Oh, of course you can.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:So hotel companies will charge you more if you book in on your telephone, on your mobile than if we're on your laptop.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker A:Because they figure if you're in the local area and you're looking up a hotel nearby, you're more desperate.
Speaker B:All right, Right.
Speaker B:Very good.
Speaker B:So you've noted, it's been noted that you believe and advocate the power of partnerships in marketing.
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker B:What's.
Speaker B:What's important about a partnership?
Speaker A:So the two bits.
Speaker A:The first bit is you can borrow somebody else's superpower.
Speaker B:These are sort of brand partnerships.
Speaker A:It could be anything, you know, it could be like we're having a partnership now, you know, so it's great that you're promoting my book and we can chat about this and this Win, win.
Speaker A:It's all great, right?
Speaker A:So it, so it could be all sorts of things and it's the same where if I'm in a supermarket, you know I want listing but the supermarket wants to get into an area.
Speaker A:So there's lots of stuff that's going on.
Speaker A:So the, the first thing is therefore you can borrow skills or expertise or knowledge or an audience access that you can't get or might expensive to do.
Speaker A:So there's a guy called David Pickles, a good friend of mine, I think he's got four hours when it's got, it's got relevance, it's got reach, it's got revenue.
Speaker A:What's the fourth one he goes or can't remember.
Speaker A:So it gives you those.
Speaker A:The second thing it does, and this is really picked up because I do a lot of stuff with startups.
Speaker A:Most startups spend most of the time raising money and then they keep on raising money and they forget to build the business.
Speaker A:You raise the money and you spend, spend it well what if you didn't spend it and you bought something in a partnership or a relationship that got you distribution or someone who gave your expertise or somebody else got it.
Speaker A:So that's another thing you do.
Speaker A:So you can fast track what you want to do.
Speaker A:And then I think the other thing you do, it can, it can also connect things in consumers minds.
Speaker A:So I'm borrowing, you know, Ryan Reynolds and Wrexham, you now think Rexon's cool and everything else on it.
Speaker A:That's part of what's borrowing with Ryan Reynolds.
Speaker A:So you can borrow stuff that goes to get together from a big organization point of view.
Speaker A:I, I think it's really interesting because they tend to get set in rails and they tend to be setting targets and everybody's too busy doing what they do.
Speaker A:They've got the money and they've got the resources.
Speaker A:Partnerships can have a cultural change because you've got a side thing that you do.
Speaker A:So I've got this project and I'd love to do that with something else you do.
Speaker A:They get all the expertise and resources you've got so you can get a crossover.
Speaker A:I mean I, I did with, I did the business games at University College London, which is the biggest business games.
Speaker A:There's like a hundred students and twenty teams and I took in one of my clients who's a startup and we got 20 students, 20 student teams to work through stuff with him and have a go at doing stuff he got the benefit of and there's some of them are his audience but they got the benefit of having a real startup founder working stuff you through and I think it's really interesting and I just think culturally it's good to do.
Speaker A:You learn different things.
Speaker A:It's really hard though because, because you go back to that, you need to be able to chat to people, you need to be willing to take risks because it could go wrong.
Speaker A:You need to agree what your common areas of measurement are and you need to be, if it's not working out, walk away and really early.
Speaker A:Don't get yourself sucked in.
Speaker A:I mean there's a very famous one I think.
Speaker A:Is it, is it Kanye west who partnered up with Adidas?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, no, Adidas dropped him.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And always up after.
Speaker A:They spend a lot of money in the scheme going through.
Speaker A:So it, it's a double edged sword.
Speaker A:But if you think about it where you know I'm trying to do something, I can expand, I can get views, I can get interest.
Speaker B:There's a lot of synergies out there to leverage.
Speaker A:You should start, what do I want to do?
Speaker A:What am I about?
Speaker A:You should start with what you know, maybe what audience would I like to reach?
Speaker A:You might start, what gaps do I have?
Speaker A:And then you go and find people.
Speaker A:And I, I years and years ago that never happened.
Speaker A:I, I worked for, I worked for bupa, the health insurance company company and we were chatting about how could they change their brand, what they're.
Speaker A:And I, we did some work that said wouldn't it be interesting if you became known for mobile healthcare?
Speaker A:This is quite a while ago.
Speaker A:And then we went who would be good to partner?
Speaker A:So we arranged a meeting with Samsung and all you were doing was arranging a meeting with people go, look, I'm putting on the table.
Speaker A:There's no real clash.
Speaker A:You know stuff about mobile.
Speaker A:You've got a big database, we've got debate what could we do together.
Speaker B:Do you do partnerships there therefore work best when they're the similar size to gorillas?
Speaker B:Depends.
Speaker A:I think it's more difficult with big gorillas because you've got egos and you've got money and then you've got dominance.
Speaker A:There's a nice one that was done last year which was.
Speaker A:Which I don't know it worked but it was like Captain Morgan's Rum and Pepsi.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And they therefore bought out a Pepsi and rum at Christmas.
Speaker A:And at the time when you're looking what to do, I thought well, you know, and that you could clearly they got on.
Speaker A:So I, it's a really.
Speaker A:But it could be all sorts of stuff.
Speaker A:It could Be I, you know, I desperately, you know, I really want to know about AI and you've got a really interesting AI technology.
Speaker A:Well, could I work with you?
Speaker A:Lots of startups looking for proof, case use cases or test pilots or everything else you want to do so that you can bring in learning, you can bring in expertise, you can bring in culture.
Speaker A:I think it's.
Speaker A:I, I see it a lot.
Speaker A:I do a lot important.
Speaker A:I think people struggle to do it it.
Speaker A:That's a cultural thing and a company thing and they worry about it because they.
Speaker A:That goes back to cultural control.
Speaker B:Well you talked about.
Speaker B:Let's just get the, get them right.
Speaker B:I mean there's the what the four P's of marketing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you're saying the fifth is partnership.
Speaker B:So I mean there's so much to learn really in marketing but as in it is a big subject if you really get into it.
Speaker B:But are there are the sort of core things every CEO should know or everyone should know.
Speaker A:So yeah, if you're a CEO, you, you should.
Speaker A:Well, let's start.
Speaker A:You know what your value proposition because that's basically what your business is, what you're selling.
Speaker A:You should understand your competitive market where your brand position is.
Speaker A:So that's.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker A:Even though you might not know where the words are, you should do that.
Speaker A:Then the second part of it for me, if you're properly you in four pieces, just a framework.
Speaker A:The four pieces says.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:In order to build your brand, you should think about what do you do with the product, what are you going to do with the price, what do you do with the place and what are you going to do and how you promote it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Have a three thought.
Speaker A:Are you gonna.
Speaker A:If you're pricing, is it top of the range, bottom of the range, Grey Goose one.
Speaker A:Am I gonna give it away for free?
Speaker A:Am I gonna give free pilots of your system that someone does?
Speaker A:Am I gonna run a breakfast event with a downloadable PDF that I email to you to get you on my database which is what most professional services be.
Speaker A:So they're all tactics.
Speaker A:If you however have got something that's core to your brand and interesting and then you amplify that within what you do.
Speaker A:I'm reinforcing if at the end of the day I, I'm, you know, suddenly I'm a.
Speaker A:An insurance company and I really suddenly gonna do something on the World Cup.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's great.
Speaker A:I'll turn up for the World Cup.
Speaker A:What's it got to do with you?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So it just need to work it.
Speaker B:What are the four R's, what do they have?
Speaker A:That's, that's Mr. Pickles.
Speaker A:Their relevance, reach, reward and revenue.
Speaker A:Okay, okay.
Speaker B:And that is what?
Speaker B:Just another way of looking at us.
Speaker A:It's his way of going his way from a commercial point of view, going right.
Speaker A:Why do you do this meeting?
Speaker A:Firstly, you'll reach more people.
Speaker A:Secondly, you could get money out of it.
Speaker A:Third, you could add your reputation, what you want to do.
Speaker A:So it's his, his, his framework.
Speaker A:I mean he runs a partnership company.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Okay, so if I asked you to summarize with five top tips for a founder or business owner or marketing, what would they be?
Speaker A:Don't get sucked into the jargon and all the worry and complexity about marketing.
Speaker A:Go back to the basics of business, which is understanding consumer.
Speaker A:Understand your market.
Speaker A:Work out why it is people would buy your products.
Speaker A:That's, that's where you start.
Speaker A:And then once you've got those things, then look how you amplify it and how you reach people, how you draw their attention.
Speaker B:So that's the first bug of the bullshit.
Speaker A:Focus on, well, go back to business.
Speaker A:Go back.
Speaker A:You know, you're, you're in a real world and real business.
Speaker A:Don't over complicate it.
Speaker A:And once you know what you are, great.
Speaker A:I mean my gag is not because I love salespeople, but it's the difference between, you know, a great salesperson can sell ice cream to Inuit gets a great marketing person means they don't have to.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:So is that the second one?
Speaker A:Is that just dig the drains up.
Speaker A:What are you good at?
Speaker A:What's the interesting story?
Speaker A:How was that made?
Speaker A:What doesn't work?
Speaker A:What do your customers think?
Speaker A:Or so.
Speaker A:So literally find lots of things out that you've got and explore.
Speaker A:And then in my.
Speaker A:One of the things I call is card look to package them to build your brand.
Speaker A:What makes what of those makes you credible?
Speaker A:What of those makes you accessible?
Speaker A:Easy to find by friction free, not hassle.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What makes it relevant?
Speaker A:It's great that you do what you do, but why is what you do in the way that you do it relevant to my problem as the customer as opposed to you're just pushing it.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And then the fourth bit is distinctive.
Speaker A:C, A, R, D. And you're in a competitive market, you know, why am I going to choose you and you?
Speaker A:It starts off by being differentiated, but at some point you want to be distinctive.
Speaker A:You know, you don't just want to be a phone.
Speaker B:That's C A R D. It's the.
Speaker A:Acronym I use to remind Credible, accessible, relevant, distinctness.
Speaker A:So I call it card.
Speaker A:Right, right, right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And then once you've dug it up, if you consider it four legs of a stool, you've got to have four of them.
Speaker A:If you find that one of them's a bit short because you're lacking credibility, go and find some.
Speaker A:If you find you haven't got access or you what could you do to fix.
Speaker A:Fix it.
Speaker A:And then if you build that it's a very, very strong thing because then very I, I'm in a meeting and say this is the reason you should hire my company.
Speaker A:You can get it.
Speaker A:It's just very, very straightforward.
Speaker A:Credible access, credible, accessible, relevant and distinctive.
Speaker A:That's one of mine is that it's sort of.
Speaker B:Yeah, nice.
Speaker A:It's not.
Speaker A:I haven't TM'd it.
Speaker A:And the words do exist in marketing.
Speaker A:The third, which we've chatted in a number of times, just work out and build a killer Valley proposition.
Speaker A:You know, we'll go back.
Speaker A:So that's the third one that I do.
Speaker A:So I've got my notes, so I don't remember.
Speaker A:But fourth, brand positioning.
Speaker A:How do you start, you know, what does your consumer want?
Speaker A:What do you do that they would like and how's it different from your competition?
Speaker A:And that means properly looking at the competitors in the market.
Speaker A:I think the thing that's really interesting is then maybe look to redraw the market and the map, rethink what your market is.
Speaker A:So say I did all the fashion brands.
Speaker A:What if I did environmentally fashion brands would be a completely different map.
Speaker A:What if I did low alcohol versus you know, so you can start to redo it and it gets very interesting.
Speaker A:You might.
Speaker A:Apple redrew the market map for what computers are.
Speaker A:Ray Goose redrew the market map vodka.
Speaker A:So you can start gaming it and it's not really difficult.
Speaker A:You just sit people in a room and then the other thing is just don't overcomplicate and get in your own way.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So lots of tech brands, for example confuse I've got this technology with what is it does or what do I need to know.
Speaker A:Communicate in a way that people understand.
Speaker B:It's all about the benefits to me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And can I find a way maybe I can draw it rather than talk about it.
Speaker A:Can I show it?
Speaker A:Is there an example there?
Speaker A:You know, there's a.
Speaker A:That you often seen used to be the good old fashioned television commercial.
Speaker A:They do a torture test.
Speaker A:You know, the arrow died.
Speaker A:Remember the old Arrow diet commercials?
Speaker B:I used to stick People with such.
Speaker A:Strong glue that we've actually stuck a car to this poster.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So whereas you can imagine something else, because what we're going to do now is we're going to show this and here's the formula for it.
Speaker A:Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker A:We'll just show it.
Speaker A:So that's really interesting.
Speaker A:That's where people who are particularly in advertising and marketing are very good at.
Speaker A:It's like.
Speaker A:I'll tell you what it is.
Speaker B:It's, you know, and they often reference other brands, don't they?
Speaker B:I'm the Uber of or.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So analogies can be quite good.
Speaker A:So you help people get a story.
Speaker A:The final bit I would go is if you're a decent business, you should be able to answer these three questions.
Speaker A:Okay, what's the problem?
Speaker A:Customer market number one, what is that?
Speaker A:Second thing should be what's the solution?
Speaker A:As in what do you do do?
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Then the third thing is why can only you do it?
Speaker B:Surely there's.
Speaker B:That's your.
Speaker B:So what's your usp, isn't it?
Speaker B:Or why.
Speaker B:Why can you do it better?
Speaker B:Isn't it?
Speaker A:I tried to, I, I tried to avoid the gradient of doing it.
Speaker A:You, you can always, you know, at the end of the day, let's do cars.
Speaker A:I used to do BMW.
Speaker A:Well, Mercedes is better than this.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, we would never go.
Speaker A:Yeah, but we just go, yeah, but we're the driver's car.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, I saw you do.
Speaker B:You came up with the driver's.
Speaker B:The ultimate driving machine.
Speaker A:I didn't come up with it.
Speaker A:I worked at the agency that did it and by the way, we stole it.
Speaker B:Oh, did you?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Robin White, who was my chairman, he nutter.
Speaker A:Genius.
Speaker A:So he did the original pitch which believe it or not, ended up with a commercial with Kirk Douglas in it, which has got nothing.
Speaker A:What we ended up with as prior to me.
Speaker A:So I joined afterwards doing this.
Speaker B:That's how they won the gig, though.
Speaker A:They won the gig.
Speaker A:And what this is a true story.
Speaker A:They had the client got through and they said they.
Speaker A:They found in America they were using the line Line, the ultimate driving machine.
Speaker A:So they stole it from America and they put it on the ad and they told the client, the UK client, that you should use the line, the ultimate driving machine, but it was already.
Speaker B:Being used by BMW in America and.
Speaker A:The client went to Robin, why am I paying you for using somebody else line?
Speaker A:And Robin saying, is this my.
Speaker A:For my judgment?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:We used to do things like when we get the Car dealers.
Speaker A:When you as BMW, you.
Speaker A:You have a car dealer process.
Speaker A:We would actually, actually try and say to the first.
Speaker A:When someone goes in the car, try to persuade them to sit in the passenger seat.
Speaker A:And then you go, why Goes.
Speaker A:Have a look at the dashboard.
Speaker A:Can you see it?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Ah, come around.
Speaker A:It's driver's car.
Speaker A:And then we go to them.
Speaker A:Where do you think the battery is?
Speaker A:Oh, let's open the bonnet up.
Speaker A:Oh, no, no, it's not here.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Because battery's everything.
Speaker A:Perfect balance in a BMW.
Speaker A:It's in the boot.
Speaker A:It's driver's car.
Speaker A:And what we were doing is we.
Speaker A:When they then went to a Mercedes dealer, they're sitting in the passenger seat going, going, oh, yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And that's what you're trying to do.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:We had.
Speaker A:I had.
Speaker A:We had all the stuff with BMW where it also.
Speaker A:It mutated.
Speaker A:I can't say this guy at a meeting where I had a presentation called When Brands Mutate, which wasn't very popular with the managing director at the time.
Speaker A:But if you go to Wall street and all that stuff and loads of money, everybody as a sales rep had a BMW.
Speaker A:So we had to go back.
Speaker A:And this is the problem that Burberry had.
Speaker A:So Burberry sold out because they.
Speaker A:They did too much with the check Novacek.
Speaker A: it became like chav check in: Speaker A:So they popularized the brand.
Speaker A:So we had to go back to try and work really, really hard.
Speaker A:I think we have 1 in all 10 cars sold in London was doing it.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker A:And then the bizarre things they did.
Speaker A:Product placement, the Bond movie, which I was involved in.
Speaker A:And I'm going, so the BMW Z4.
Speaker A:Well, the Z4, which is.
Speaker A:Was.
Speaker A:If you watch it, it's.
Speaker A:They finish the movie.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:You could remove the scene with the Z4 and it would make no difference to the mov.
Speaker A:Cause it just appears.
Speaker A:He talks about the gadgets.
Speaker A:It shoots some rockets and blows some gates up and it's never ever seen again.
Speaker A:And then the one that's really upsetting to me, this is me as a brand person is they.
Speaker A:They had one where Pierce Broslan.
Speaker A:Bear in mind, it's a driver's car, is remotely driving it.
Speaker A:He's not driving it on a joystick in a car park.
Speaker A:He then crashes it through the outside and it ends up in a navy showroom.
Speaker A:And I'm going, and I'm such a sad person.
Speaker A:No, that's not on brand.
Speaker B:I'm going to write stiffly worded letters.
Speaker B:I'm going to show them what Then.
Speaker A:I go back to my corporate principles.
Speaker A:So they're paying us money.
Speaker A:I'm just going to keep quiet about that one.
Speaker A:My brand value.
Speaker A:Stop there.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Mark, it's been a delight.
Speaker B:You've been absolutely brilliant.
Speaker B:Thank you so much for coming down.
Speaker B:I really enjoyed it.
Speaker B:So if people want to find out more about you or what, tell me about this book.
Speaker B:Let's talk about the book.
Speaker A:It's a Work Smarter Guide to Marketing, Better Marketing about the.
Speaker A:It's available every place you can go on Amazon and you can go obviously to Foils, all sorts of other places.
Speaker B:You don't got an audiobook, I assume.
Speaker A:It's got a download version of Will be on audio.
Speaker A:And it comes out in the States, I think, in the new year.
Speaker A:And largely what I'm now doing is I'm doing talks and workshops around it and I'm also doing a lot of university stuff, so that's.
Speaker A:I really enjoy that.
Speaker B:Brilliant.
Speaker B:So thank you.
Speaker B:That was this week's Business without bs.
Speaker B:We'll see you same time next week.
