Episode 379
Business vs. Bitcoin or Business vs. Bullsh-tcoin. You decide.
EP 379 - Our guest this week is artist and bitcoin evangelist Psyfer. He wants to get you all high on the Hope-ium that Bitcoin (not any other crypto-currencies, they are all Sh*tcoin apparently) are the way to end inequality and injustice.
We weigh up the pros - it’s decentralised and accessible to everyone.
The cons - it’s a scary mystery to most people that feels like a scam.
And the revolutionary - how bitcoin challenges the existing power and wealth structures of governments, corporations and the obscenely wealthy (although they could all just buy bitcoin)
So, are Bitcoiners just getting high on their own supply or will it change the world? Get Psyfer-delic with this week’s episode. Turn on, tune in and find out!
*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*
Spotify Video Chapters:
00:00 BWB with Psyfer
02:05 Meet Psyfer - Art and Financial Rebellion
02:35 The Mystery and Security of Bitcoin
05:50 Bitcoin vs. Other Cryptocurrencies
08:26 The Future of Money: Bitcoin's Potential
13:28 Economic Implications of Bitcoin Adoption
27:57 Public Services and Private Markets
33:45 Responding to Technological Change
34:17 The Flexibility of Remote Work
34:44 Using Bitcoin in Everyday Transactions
35:27 The Inclusive Bitcoin Community
36:22 Finding and Joining Local Bitcoin Meetups
37:31 Tax Implications of Bitcoin Transactions
38:42 Bitcoin's Role in Global Economics
39:40 The Future of Money and Bitcoin
46:45 The Problem with Fiat Money
56:49 Quickfire - Get to Know Psyfer
58:44 Wrap Up
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Transcript
I think it's all about Bitcoin, fundamentally because of this issue of decentralization.
Speaker B:But why aren't we sort of tapping our phone to pay Bitcoin all the time?
Speaker A:My problem there is with the law, because they're telling me that an asset is not money.
Speaker A:Who are they to define what is money?
Speaker B:I think the real conversation is they're lying about inflation.
Speaker B:Inflation is way higher than they publish.
Speaker A:But why should there be any inflation at all?
Speaker A:The argument is a very kind of Keynesian, modern monetary kind of theory that the government should be the entity that stimulates the economy.
Speaker A:Economy.
Speaker A:There's nothing in economics that says we need to have a gradually increasing money system.
Speaker B:Their only way of getting money is to tax people.
Speaker A:Yeah, and providing good service, not spaffing like whatever.
Speaker A:2 million on the Hyde park mount or relabeling the overground.
Speaker A:It's just pure propaganda.
Speaker A:But it's a waste of public money for what good just to get reelected.
Speaker A:You know, money is such a restricted construct for so many people and here we have a money that every single person on earth can take part of and there is no one man at the top running the show.
Speaker B:Hi and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.
Speaker B:We're here to help the founders, entrepreneurs, business owners, anyone who wrestles with the job of being in charge.
Speaker B:And if you like what we do here, please rate and review us on Spotify and Apple and come say hi on YouTube if you fancy watching us in action.
Speaker B:Links are in the episode description or just search for wblond.
Speaker B:Can you debate an evangelist?
Speaker B:It's like trying to play chess against a pigeon.
Speaker B:Tricky.
Speaker B:Whilst I don't always agree with the arguments made by Cypher, a bitcoiner and artists with a decentralized identity, I found the chat enlightening.
Speaker B:We spoke about how belief in a bitcoin monetary system creates a kind of bleak hopium for a revolutionary change in the way the world operates.
Speaker B:Plus how bitcoin is a threat to big governments because it deflates their capital and devolves their power structures.
Speaker B:How having the power to create units of money in the traditional sense is what leads to corruption, enslavement and forever wars.
Speaker B:And the taxation is theft.
Speaker B:Note to Mr.
Speaker B:HMRC, that last one is the opinion of Cypher, not mine.
Speaker B:So to hear him make his case, watch on.
Speaker B:I am Andy Ori and today I am joined by Cypher, an artist who's redefining the way we think about money, power and value.
Speaker B:He's the founder of Cipher Monk House, a pop up gallery at the heart of the bitcoin movement, where art meets financial rebellion.
Speaker B:What a phrase.
Speaker B:Cipher.
Speaker B:A warm welcome to the podcast.
Speaker A:Thank you very much.
Speaker A:Andy, how you doing?
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker B:I feel we should start with your name being cipher.
Speaker B:Identity in this space is something that is complex.
Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker B:I mean.
Speaker B:I mean, bitcoin is always.
Speaker B:And crypto is always shrouded in a bit of mystery.
Speaker B:There's this sort of contradict, isn't it, that everything is on the chain, yet it's all sort of invisible and a bit shady.
Speaker B:What's that all about for you?
Speaker A:Well, I mean, let's start.
Speaker A:Obviously, this is my real hair, you know, as you can tell, gorgeous looks.
Speaker A:But I think it fundamentally comes down to the fact that as a bitcoin holder or a crypto holder, there is no.
Speaker A:There is no bank protecting your money beyond you looking after it for yourself.
Speaker A:So any bad actor, any criminal, we call it the $5 wrench attack, can find you, put a gun to your head, and there's nothing in the middle of them taking your crypto from you.
Speaker B:Why is it called a $5 wrench attack?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:The Americans, they've got funny names for things, but, yeah, I guess someone comes.
Speaker B:Up with a wrench.
Speaker A:There's a lot of jargon.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that's.
Speaker A:That's part of the.
Speaker A:Part of the puzzle for people.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:There's some mystery within this.
Speaker B:This whole world that's sort of appealing almost.
Speaker B:Is it?
Speaker B:Or it's sort of part of it to be mysterious?
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:And that's part of kind of the Internet thing going on as well.
Speaker A:That's been going on for a while.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker A:That anonymous space where people can communicate and talk, you know, with a.
Speaker A:With a different identity.
Speaker A:That kind of decentralization of your identity.
Speaker B:This decentralization of your identity.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:As a person.
Speaker B:What does that mean?
Speaker A:I mean, it's having, like, multiple identities, you know, people, you know, Satoshi, the founder of bitcoin, is obviously not his real name.
Speaker A:So here's a person who's used to taking on different identities because he's probably aware of the dangers of putting your real name, you know, your birth name, the thing that is listed somewhere on a piece of paper, and any potential repercussions that could come from that.
Speaker B:It could be about governmental repercussions.
Speaker B:Could it?
Speaker B:Do you think that's the more of the concern than the sort of rogue actors or criminal actors could be either.
Speaker B:Is it.
Speaker B:You know, I mean, if you were him and deciding your identity, I Mean, what he created wasn't illegal per se, was it?
Speaker A:No, no, it's just a piece of code.
Speaker B:It's just a piece of code.
Speaker B:And, you know, him.
Speaker B:Him not being identified is important.
Speaker B:Is it important to the integrity of Bitcoin or.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:It's just best not to get involved, I guess.
Speaker A:I think it's good that we don't know who he is, because if we'd have known who he was and you could find know, you've suddenly got a single point of failure, you know.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Well, here's the man that started it.
Speaker A:If it's the state, if it's a bad actor who.
Speaker A:Anyone wants to shut it down, they go to this person's store, they say, you've got to.
Speaker A:You've got to turn that off.
Speaker A:Obviously, with Bitcoin, that's not something that any one person can do anymore.
Speaker A:But I think, you know, from a personal security perspective, I think the person that created that was obviously very aware that creating an alternative, a parallel financial system, you know, would have implications from the current financial system in terms of what they think of it.
Speaker B:It's funny, maybe just trying to build some building blocks, but are you.
Speaker B:You know, obviously there's lots of.
Speaker B:What was invented has led to all sorts of cryptocurrencies and, and they have, you know, there's coins with utility.
Speaker B:There are.
Speaker B:There are numerous ways you could.
Speaker B:This technology is developing and moving, and I'm aware that some people are very much like Bitcoin, screw everything else.
Speaker B:Or they're into all of the technology and Ethereum and, you know, the smart contracts.
Speaker B:Which side of the fence are you on?
Speaker A:I'm in the screw everything else fence.
Speaker B:And what's.
Speaker B:What's that about?
Speaker B:You know, because a lot of people, you know, we had an eminent lady on this podcast a while ago, you know, one of the sort of leading academics in the area, and was kind of like, well, Bitcoin doesn't have any value, but there are values in the other things.
Speaker B:But why.
Speaker B:Why would you come to the conversation being like, now it's all about Bitcoin.
Speaker B:Don't worry about the rest.
Speaker A:I think it's all about Bitcoin, fundamentally because of this issue of decentralization.
Speaker A:So bitcoin has its decentralization because people all over the world can run a node.
Speaker A:A node stores the entire ledger.
Speaker A:Every single transaction that's ever happened on the bitcoin blockchain, other crypto tokens, the, perhaps the initial cost that an individual might need to run their own node are way too high for the individual.
Speaker A: ,: Speaker A:So it doesn't make it accessible to everyone.
Speaker A:That's one factor, let alone the fact that most other tokens are started by individuals or companies who have pre mined most of the coins.
Speaker A:So they've.
Speaker A:And the recent examples today, the Trump coin, Melania coin, Javier Malay coin, they, you know, and the developers openly acknowledged, you know, we are creating this coin, it's been pre mined.
Speaker A:A load of people have taken most of the value from this thing because you put it onto market, it suddenly gets a little bit of value.
Speaker A:But the people have actually kept 90% of the coin already.
Speaker A:They're just making money out of thin air.
Speaker A:The same way that the central banks do create money from nothing.
Speaker A:And that's why we call them shitcoins.
Speaker B:So all other, all other coins are shitcoins.
Speaker A:All other coins are shitcoins.
Speaker A:And this is as well because you know, money is a kind of winner takes all game.
Speaker A:We only need one good money for the world.
Speaker A:The fact that we have multiple currencies in, you know, pounds, euros, dollars is because each jurisdiction has kind of developed like that.
Speaker A:You've had the pound was kind of dominant in the whole of Britain.
Speaker A:Britain didn't have multiple currencies competing, it just had one.
Speaker A:You only need one to work.
Speaker A:But obviously in the Internet age, in the globalized age when we're all connected, if you can create a digital money which is native to the Internet that everyone can use, you know, you can have other coins but one will obviously prove itself as superior based on the fundamental properties of money.
Speaker A:And that's kind of going, those are the building blocks that we really go back to is what are the key properties of money, what makes something a good money?
Speaker A:Why is it better to have gold than a cow?
Speaker A:Why is it better to have bitcoin to Ethereum?
Speaker A:You know, you have to, you have to make an assessment on the, on the actual properties of these things.
Speaker A:You know, in, back in the day when Britain was on the gold and silver standard, you know, the bimetal standard, we'd been on a silver standard predominantly and we moved eventually when gold started to kind of make its appearance as really a strong store of value and obviously the precious metal that it is, they suddenly had to basically either price one of the metals based on the other.
Speaker A:So we priced silver based on gold and that meant that silver had an artificial value.
Speaker A:So silver started leaving the country because it had more value as a raw metal than it did valued as money in gold terms.
Speaker A:So gold was obviously the superior money.
Speaker A:You didn't need the second.
Speaker A:And it fled the country and left because it was being used as a real.
Speaker A:As a real metal.
Speaker B:Let's take that example that gold is money.
Speaker B:You're suggesting that eventually we aggregate to one currency and that would be helpful for everyone.
Speaker B:And the Internet does have a tendency to do that, you know, Amazon or whoever.
Speaker B:But we live in a world that even if we had a single currency, we would still have gold.
Speaker B:Like, like what makes a good currency transportable, you know, got sort of clear value or, you know, they're easy, isn't it?
Speaker B:And gold, we gave up with gold, I guess, because it was having to move around or, you know, it had some issues with it.
Speaker B:I mean, isn't there a world where maybe we'll have bitcoin, but you'd still have gold?
Speaker B:And to that extent, as many people note, you know, although it may have been designed, some argue Bitcoin to do small transactions, there's always this sort of problem that it's, it's a little bit sl.
Speaker B:Transactionally and things like that.
Speaker B:The vision of the way you see the world ending up is just bitcoin and no one cares about gold.
Speaker B:Bitcoin and gold and another one that's easier or, you know, you know, there's several questions in there.
Speaker A:So there are several questions in there, Andy?
Speaker A:Yeah, I'll start by just saying bitcoin is extremely quick to move around.
Speaker A:I think that's the, the, the form of knowledge when people were bait, judging the time on, on a, on an on chain transaction.
Speaker A:So you're sending it on layer one on the blockchain, which takes about 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes to make a transaction.
Speaker A:We have layer two solutions, we'll have layer three.
Speaker A:We'll have all sorts of different solutions to make it happen much quicker.
Speaker A:Currently, the lightning network is a very quick second layer solution to enable instantaneous settlement along with the liquid network, all other networks.
Speaker B:So why isn't that, why isn't that flowed out into business though, yet?
Speaker B:You know, why are we not tapping our thing?
Speaker B:I mean, there's a little bit of it, but why aren't we sort of tapping our phone to pay bitcoin all the time?
Speaker A:That's a question for you, Andy.
Speaker A:You're a man with a business.
Speaker B:Why hasn't we, we accept bitcoin?
Speaker B:One of the reasons is capital gains.
Speaker B:You know, every time I pay your you're transacting an asset and the assets often gained in value.
Speaker B:So you're going to suffer capital gains.
Speaker B:Sure, that's a big problem.
Speaker A:Sure, sure.
Speaker A:But yeah, my, my prob, my problem there is with the law because they're telling me that an asset is not money or that, you know, who, who are they to define what is money?
Speaker A:They're telling me I have to use this as money.
Speaker A:I'm saying I'm choosing to use this as money.
Speaker A:This is my money.
Speaker A:It's not a capital gain.
Speaker A:I don't pay capital, buy some dollars.
Speaker A:When I go to go to America, there's no capital gains transaction on that.
Speaker B:I think the problem is, is you bought something for a pound and now when you're transacting it's worth ten pounds.
Speaker B:So it's all the, but all, all.
Speaker A:Currencies are kind of floating on, on the exchange.
Speaker A:So they're all changing incrementally in value all the time.
Speaker A:You know, if you bought some dollars.
Speaker B:You'D have to change the tax system to be in Bitcoin.
Speaker B:So at that, at the moment VAT and taxes must be paid in pounds and it's the movement against the pound that matters.
Speaker B:So there barrier over time that, especially as Bitcoin, if it continues to gain in value over a long term, that using it will always cause you a tax problem until it's like concept of functional currency.
Speaker B:So you have a functional currency within a company.
Speaker B:You can have a presentation currency, but a functional currency is the main currency in which you trade.
Speaker B:And you can have British companies whose functional currency is dollars.
Speaker B:It could have a British company's functional currency as Bitcoin.
Speaker B:Tax man doesn't care.
Speaker B:Tax man wants pounds.
Speaker B:So there is a barrier there at the moment because if I go tap my phone and pay five pounds worth of Bitcoin at that moment I'm actually, you know, and if it cost me a pound, I just made a four pound gain at that moment.
Speaker B:So I agree with you, it's about the relative thing.
Speaker B:But you're, I mean this is a conversation we previously had.
Speaker B:But you feel that the, on the, the thing that will decide things at the end is that they're not diluting money, that you know, they're not printing currency which is creating, if you're not aware by the way, and I do recommend checking out some of Andrew Craig's work and others, but you know, inflation is way higher than they publish because effectively they print money to pay government bonds that we can't afford.
Speaker B:So effectively by Printing money, our money's being devalued.
Speaker B:And that's why relative to houses are much more expensive relative to salaries used to be.
Speaker B:So, you know, it's really important to own commodities.
Speaker A:So why should there be any inflation at all?
Speaker A:The argument is a very kind of Keynesian, modern monetary kind of theory that, you know, the government should be the entity that stimulates the economy.
Speaker A:We have the divine seniorage to create money, to add units into the economy.
Speaker A:It is our power.
Speaker A:But actually there's nothing that, there's nothing in economics that says we need to have a gradually increasing money system.
Speaker A:You just need a money that works.
Speaker A:You need, you need units that can be divided infinitely if possible, which is what bitcoin enables.
Speaker A:And then you'll always have the units to be able to, to kind of the prices won't be going up on the things, the prices of the money will be going up.
Speaker A:You know, the money accrues the wealth as opposed to everything else increasing in value.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm not good enough at that stuff about inflation, but you can have, you can have deflation or inflation, of course, you know, neither are good.
Speaker B:I'm not aware whether there's ever been times where there has not been inflation.
Speaker B:I mean, it'd be interesting to look back whether there have been times where effectively there's been zero inflation in these days.
Speaker B:Part of the nature.
Speaker B:Like I took a really simple example, people always demand more money.
Speaker B:So in some countries, if I do a job, I'm a window cleaner and I get paid ten pounds an hour to do that job, just easy numbers.
Speaker B:I feel over time I should be paid more because experience matters and I'm doing my job better.
Speaker B:And it's actually a lot of the time and nonsense for a lot of jobs there might be a period in which you learn and stuff, but you might peak in your 30s and 40s.
Speaker B:And yet in, certainly in this country, we do take the view, you know, you take into consideration someone's age to consider their pay because you feel as they get older in life they should be paid more.
Speaker B:I mean, that metric is just throwing one out, you know, that creates a kind of inflation that I'm not very comfortable always being paid 10 pounds.
Speaker B:I want to be appreciated more over time, which is very human.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:But on a bitcoin standard, you're going to be paying less.
Speaker A:You're going to be paid less over time.
Speaker A:You know, I know that if I sell a piece of art today, I'm going to get paid less for that piece of Art in a year's time.
Speaker B:Why, why less?
Speaker A:Because, because the value of Bitcoin is monetizing as a monetary asset.
Speaker A:So it is, it is gaining value in that time.
Speaker B:So I'm going to get less Bitcoin.
Speaker A:Because there'll be more Bitcoin because it's worth more.
Speaker A:But you know, it's only worth more in fiat terms.
Speaker A:It's not actually, you know, one Bitcoin is one Bitcoin.
Speaker A:It was free from the day one.
Speaker A:You know, until you realize the value of a monetary system that is contained, you know, has no leakage and has no one able to kind of manipulate price controls or increase supply.
Speaker A:When you realize the value of a system like that, that you realize that it's, it's infinitely value and it's, and it's far more valuable than the current price that's listed on, on the ticker today.
Speaker B:I mean, eventually, you know, I'm aware that we struggle to find gold now.
Speaker B:Gold is getting quite hard to find.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, you said earlier that it was because, you know, we found it harder to use it and stuff, but obviously the, the issue was that it got centralized because, you know, it needs vaults.
Speaker A:Gold is heavy and you know, if you've got a lot of it, where are you going to put it?
Speaker A:And the more that you have, you need more guns and more kind of vaults to kind of secure the thing.
Speaker A:So it inherently ends up being centralized and obviously only a few kind of entities can manage that central bank.
Speaker A:So it wasn't that kind of.
Speaker A:We just deliberately left it.
Speaker A:Just that was the obvious path for it.
Speaker A:And the obvious path for gold in the future is that actually it can be start being used as the valuable metal that it is.
Speaker A:I mean, gold as a kind of, you know, substitute bone or something in your body is going to be extremely value instead of sitting in a vault doing absolutely nothing.
Speaker B:I mean, there seems to be a place in the world for multiple forms of value, isn't it?
Speaker B:You know, you don't think gold, I mean, it has some uses as you know, but you know, ultimately it's just treated like it's money, isn't it?
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:You know, it's the bitcoin's modern gold, isn't it?
Speaker B:You think that Bitcoin will get rid of all of these currencies, including gold?
Speaker B:Why bother?
Speaker B:So you would, you would be short, as they say, the value of gold over time.
Speaker A:Because money is, money is a competitive game.
Speaker A:You know, if one, money is better.
Speaker A:Why, why would you.
Speaker A: silver and I hold gold in the: Speaker A:Over the period of the next 200 years, you.
Speaker A:You stick to silver, I stick to gold.
Speaker A:One of us wins, one of us loses.
Speaker A:And that's the nature of all monies.
Speaker A:When you have new money on the game.
Speaker A:I stick to bitcoin, you stick to pound sterling.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, that.
Speaker A:That's been the history of bitcoin's existence for the last 16 years.
Speaker A:You know, everyone has lost wealth in fiat terms and everyone has gained wealth.
Speaker A:If you, if you hold bitcoin, maybe.
Speaker B:Let's go, let's.
Speaker B:Let's go a little further on, like the optimism.
Speaker B:So what, what do you feel?
Speaker B:The Hopium, Is that what it's called?
Speaker B:It's another phrase.
Speaker B:What is the Hopium?
Speaker A:The Hopium.
Speaker A:The Hopium is that people don't hate on us and that everyone can get there in their own time without force and coercion, as opposed to using the system, which is totally coerced right now, that the hope is that people can just be taught the reality of this thing and be taught the reality of the economic situation, as opposed to having all of these valuable, important messages hidden from most people's education, from most people's life.
Speaker A:Until you wake up and you realize that you've been enslaved in a game that you can't win.
Speaker B:I mean, that doesn't.
Speaker B:In a way that doesn't sound too hopeful.
Speaker B:I mean, even the fact that there's a small group of people who are sitting on bitcoin and they're doing terribly well and others aren't, I mean, that sounds pretty much like normality, isn't it, that I missed the boat?
Speaker B:You know, I don't have money to go.
Speaker B:I mean, it's become very expensive now.
Speaker B:And like anything that keeps going up in price, it always feels it's overpriced at the time.
Speaker B:So people don't get on the boat to buy bitcoin.
Speaker B:You're going to end up with a smallish group of people with lots and lots of bitcoin saying, fuck you, because we're all jealous.
Speaker B:You were all quite mean apes underneath it.
Speaker B:How does that then transcend?
Speaker B:They end up the people in power, and then they end up employing people with their bitcoin, but they don't have.
Speaker A:The power to issue more bitcoins.
Speaker A:So bitcoin circulates fairly.
Speaker A:Whereas the current system, the people that have consolidated the wealth on top of the ability that they've got that consolidated wealth, they then have the power to.
Speaker B:Issue more wealth on those two.
Speaker B:Those are two different ones, the government and one's rich people.
Speaker B:Rich people can't issue more money.
Speaker A:Central banks.
Speaker A:The central banks can issue more money, but obviously the overlap is thin.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, no, I mean, this is interesting in terms of.
Speaker B:Let's keep going down this.
Speaker B:Hoping.
Speaker B:The hope is that it was interesting how you phrase it.
Speaker B:People don't hate on us.
Speaker B:People don't hate on the people with Bitcoin.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think inevitably will.
Speaker A:I mean, I think inevitably.
Speaker A:I mean, this is, this is the reason why I didn't want to go down the reality.
Speaker A:Because I'm not the kind of person that can talk about the reality in a kind of light way.
Speaker A:You know, I'd rather, I'd rather you actually pessimistic.
Speaker A:I'd rather make jokes.
Speaker A:Yeah, of course.
Speaker A:How could you not be pessimistic about the future?
Speaker A:We're the, we're at the edge of a massive financial crisis, you know, and war is on the cards and it's the same, it's the same pattern that happens throughout history.
Speaker B:That's the point.
Speaker B:Why am I optimistic about the future?
Speaker B:Because if you, if you ask someone who's been around a while, they're like, the world's always been like this.
Speaker B:It's always been on the edge of financial disaster.
Speaker B:It's always been at war.
Speaker B: now or how dark it was in the: Speaker B:You know, it's like, you know, that was just.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, we can all suffer and stuff, but, you know, a third of the population's being wiped out through wars.
Speaker B:That, that make little sense really.
Speaker B:You know, I think, I think, you know, by most metrics actually aren't people who are half class, full, half class, 70, but by most metrics, actually, you know, you could be negative now, but you could say, yeah, but information's free.
Speaker B:I could be hopeful about a future.
Speaker B:I don't, I, I don't think it's black.
Speaker B:Well, no, I don't think it's black and white.
Speaker B:I think, oh, it's going to be all like Star Trek or something.
Speaker B:You know, it's all brilliant.
Speaker B:You know, we're gonna, everyone's gonna be peace and love, you know, and I mean, hopefully we'll get there one day because that is the logical thing to do.
Speaker B:The logical thing for any intelligent species is to stop murdering each other and stop realizing they're all one people and all of that.
Speaker B:But on the journey there, it's going to look like a bitcoin graph.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker A:But I mean, the history of most war wars is that they are funded on printed money.
Speaker A:You know, wars extend throughout time.
Speaker A:You know, it's the forever wars, the forever wars of my lifetime.
Speaker A:You know, the wars in the Middle east, they have gone on and on and on because there is an endless money supply.
Speaker A:And that money supply is, is supporting conflict where, you know, they know that they're extracting assets and they're, you know, installing democracy and installing the central bank.
Speaker B:Does that change?
Speaker B:Does that change with Bitcoin?
Speaker B:Do you have less war?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:I don't know if you have less war.
Speaker A:But I think, I mean, it's a very different world fundamentally.
Speaker A:And I think that the nature of violence shifts from being something that is organized at a massive scale from a centralized entity to something that is more random, small scale.
Speaker A:I mean, that's the thing.
Speaker A:The centralization of money causes the centralization of all other industries causes the centralization and the growth of government.
Speaker A:So the decentralization of money causes.
Speaker A:The decentralization of government causes a reduction in these huge power pyramids.
Speaker A:So yeah, there'll still be smaller pyramids of power going on, but the conflicts won't be at the same scale of 6 million people being annihilated.
Speaker B:Keep going there.
Speaker B:What happens to go.
Speaker B:Let's say bitcoin replaces traditional money.
Speaker B:People rely now on bitcoin as the principal global currency.
Speaker B:Therefore no central banks.
Speaker B:I mean, that's good.
Speaker B:If they're not printing things.
Speaker B:Governments raise money through tax and through bonds, their governments will only be able to raise money through tax.
Speaker A:Governments are forced to be fiscally responsible.
Speaker B:They're forced to be.
Speaker B:So they're forced to not print money.
Speaker B:Well, which means their only way of getting money is really.
Speaker B:I mean, can they still issue bonds?
Speaker B:No, their only way of getting money is to tax people.
Speaker A:Their only way of.
Speaker A:Yeah, and providing good service.
Speaker A:Not spaffing like whatever, 2 million on the Hyde park mount or relabeling the.
Speaker A:The overground.
Speaker A:All the overground network being rebranded.
Speaker A:I mean, what.
Speaker A:How much did they spend on that?
Speaker A:For what?
Speaker A:I mean, a vanity project.
Speaker A:I mean, that's Donald Trump renaming the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf.
Speaker B:What is it even called now?
Speaker B:Is.
Speaker B:It confused me when I went there the other day.
Speaker A:Well, they've all got different names.
Speaker A:Lioness, Windrush.
Speaker A:And it's, it's just pure propaganda.
Speaker A:But it's a waste of public money.
Speaker A:For what good?
Speaker A:Just to get Reelected.
Speaker B:Well, I mean, ultimately the.
Speaker B:You will still need public services.
Speaker B:And ultimately they would only be able to do that through tax.
Speaker B:So ultimately there would be more tax.
Speaker B:And if there's only a small group of people who've hoarded up large amounts of bitcoin, because the nature of people is to kind of hoard it and keep it.
Speaker B:I think the democratization bit is difficult because there's going to be a group of people with it and there's going to be a group of people without it who've got to earn it.
Speaker B:So you end up in a.
Speaker B:It's just, it's a bit like the industrial revolution.
Speaker B:You've just got a shift of who's got the money.
Speaker B:The people who had the money before were the people with the land and the titles.
Speaker B:Then the people came the money with industrialists, and the new ones will be the ones with the bitcoin.
Speaker A:But the difference is the rules have changed that.
Speaker A:You know, just because you have the money doesn't mean you can make more of it.
Speaker A:That power, that seniorage, the power to issue money, money that is a significant problem with the world and that's, that goes all the way back through history.
Speaker A:You know, if you could issue money, you know, the Romans, they could then bring their money in, clip the coins, make more of it.
Speaker A:They had that power because it's, it's their money.
Speaker A:You know, in the same way that today if you, if you can issue money, you can divert the money to the kind of interests and the other industries that you support.
Speaker A:You know, the people that get the money first, they are getting advantage of new units and the price of everything else.
Speaker A:The price, inflation of other goods hasn't caught up so they can buy up assets at cheaper prices because the market value of things hasn't caught up to the newly inflated money supply.
Speaker A:So there's a real problem with the power to issue money.
Speaker A:So if no one has that power, taking that out of human control is, I think, a benefit to kind of all humanity.
Speaker B:So stay tuned because up next we will discuss how a strong monetary system can't be manipulated.
Speaker B:No printing presses, no surprise supply increases.
Speaker B:No one is pulling the strings.
Speaker B:That, that's Bitcoin's power.
Speaker B:When you truly get this, you stop obsessing over price and start seeing its real worth.
Speaker B:We also discuss how the money shapes the world you live in.
Speaker B:If you stick with the money that's easily manipulated, then you accept a system designed to keep wealth unevenly distributed.
Speaker B:Cypher challenges to rethink the concept of money itself.
Speaker B:Because the choices we make now decide the financial future we create.
Speaker B:And now a quick word from our sponsor.
Speaker B:Business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ori Clark.
Speaker B: ancial and legal advice since: Speaker B:You can find us@oriclark.com Orey is spelled O U R Y Before we press on.
Speaker B:Just a quick reminder to come say hi on whatever social platform you like.
Speaker B:We're pretty much on all of them.
Speaker B:Just search for be London.
Speaker B:It's definitely a benefit that people stop printing money.
Speaker B:I mean, weirdly, I was listening to a podcast yesterday about the decision at which the, the, the point at which they decided and it was actually in America to.
Speaker B:It was to do with how they fixed the value of gold.
Speaker B:And that was an American system.
Speaker B:I'm forgetting it all.
Speaker B:But there is like supposedly one of the worst decisions made at that time because that's the point at which they started getting into sort of PR money and stuff and changing and that's made everyone poor.
Speaker B:So I think without a doubt, you know, this printing of money is making everyone poor or like making a whole load of people poor.
Speaker B:Not everybody.
Speaker B:And if you don't own assets, then you are going to suffer badly from it.
Speaker B:I think that that would be great to fix.
Speaker B:I'm not sure it fixes everything because I think you still can have wars and then you get tax revenue and then you just tax the.
Speaker B:Out of people you can.
Speaker B:It's easier for them to collect taxes too because they know who's got the money because they've got a, they've got a distributed chain.
Speaker B:They could set up some AI and just say, don't even have to do tax returns anymore, you know, Right.
Speaker B:You owe this, you owe that, we'll take it.
Speaker B:You know, and I, I don't, I don't fundamentally think we shouldn't have public.
Speaker B:I mean even if you forget with the other governments, should you have public services?
Speaker B:You know, yeah, we need sewers and we need people picking up.
Speaker B:We need do people doing that no one else wants to do or requires a central organization to do it, isn't it?
Speaker B:It's sort of.
Speaker B:Those things are quite interesting.
Speaker A:But do you not think the private market could provide all the services that you need?
Speaker A:Could you not put these things out to tender?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:We need someone to sweep.
Speaker B:You know, it's a really interesting question, but I like what someone said on this podcast a long time ago, which is wherever there's a single source of supply, water, electricity, because, you know, electricity to private markets, I mean, it's see what happens now.
Speaker B:You know, they're going to put a load of things back in the public, you know, trains and whatever.
Speaker B:That is a hugely philosophical question that I can't, I can't.
Speaker B:Well, it's an economic question as well, but certain things like water.
Speaker B:Imagine lots of different private companies getting water from rivers and stuff.
Speaker B:I mean, Thames water doing a terrible job.
Speaker A:What about a lot of private individuals getting water somehow?
Speaker A:You know, imagine, imagine the technology in desalination or whatever, or like storing rainwater and making it safe.
Speaker A:Imagine if these technologies come to individuals, the electricity thing, suddenly we've all got wind generators, solar panels on all of our house.
Speaker A:Imagine if individuals just have, have those that they need, they can provide for themselves again.
Speaker A:This is the kind of sovereign ethos of Bitcoin that you become self sovereign with your food, your energy.
Speaker A:You know, we have the technology at our fingertips, you know, the kind of technological revolution that's coming empowers individuals.
Speaker A:So do we necessarily need these massive, bloated, you know, badly managed kind of institutions and.
Speaker B:Well, it's suggesting people have a lot of time and maybe they'll have more time in the future.
Speaker B:But I, I don't have time to compost all my food or deal with all my rubbish.
Speaker A:You don't have time to compost your food?
Speaker B:Well, you know, I'm talking, if you're talking about being independent, like living off grid, that requires quite a lot of effort.
Speaker A:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker A:Which is.
Speaker A:It's a lifestyle choice, you know.
Speaker B:Well, it's not a lifestyle choice.
Speaker B:It's, you know, you've got people functioning in society, you've got doctors, they don't have any time to do that, so they could hire someone else to do that.
Speaker B:I mean, I like the idea of independence of people that actually, that might lead to a different thing where you, you know, you disengage from, you know, this tribalism is a lot of our problem, you know, that we're, you know, and it makes me sad when people get like, I'm Scottish, I'm, you know, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm.
Speaker B:This particular place.
Speaker B:It's not even like British, it's not even like, you know, citizen of the world.
Speaker B:It's like the more we divide ourselves down into groups, the more we antagonize each other because we're from different tribes.
Speaker B:So I like the idea that if you all become your own little tribe, like your own little family or whatever were.
Speaker B:I mean that because you, you end up almost back to square one.
Speaker B:Where we were.
Speaker B:But the idea of removing the, the, the attachment to flag and nationalism and patriotism may, may give you an opportunity over the long time to attach yourself to just being a human, which is quite interesting.
Speaker A:And a universal money for all humans, which everyone can use and have no kind of central human controlling is a great leveler for all humans.
Speaker A:No flags, no, no, you know, complete apolitical money.
Speaker B:Yeah, but is it?
Speaker B:Because to get there is incredibly political, isn't it?
Speaker B:You've got to disrupt financial systems.
Speaker B:You've got to.
Speaker A:You, you know, history is full of disruptions, Andy.
Speaker A:Like, you know, you can't stop humans innovating.
Speaker A:You know, if we want to stop humans innovating, great, but that's not my world.
Speaker B:No, but to say it's apolitical.
Speaker B:It's, it's, it's actually people.
Speaker B:It's gonna be.
Speaker A:It is very political, of course, but it's not political in the sense that, you know, a communist can hold bitcoin.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, arguably, Arguably money is, is, is one of the, the truly unpolitical thing.
Speaker B:I mean, arguably money as a concept.
Speaker A:Is sort of completely neutral.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's, it's something everybody wants and needs and you can't deny effectively, you know, some system of exchange.
Speaker B:Let's keep going in that direction.
Speaker B:So if, I mean, let's just think about it from businesses perspective.
Speaker B:I mean, what do you.
Speaker B:So in your opinion, if you are all in, as I know others are on the, on the whole Bitcoin is, is the thing I want to rely on because I have faith in it and I don't have faith in governments or in printed money or in other things.
Speaker B:Then from a business point of view, businesses will struggle to.
Speaker B:Well, they can choose to try and accept bitcoin, but as the tax stands, you know, the people I know.
Speaker B:Okay, let's ask this question.
Speaker B:The people I know hold bitcoin, they don't like, they don't like selling it because the value's going up in their view.
Speaker B:So if you're long bitcoin, you hate selling it.
Speaker B:Everyone I know.
Speaker B:So you hate using it.
Speaker B:It's not even about tax.
Speaker B:I think probably most of them aren't even aware that they've got a tax problem by using it.
Speaker B:So everyone is speculating to, you know, accumulating and speculating.
Speaker B:So that creates an intrinsic problem to not private, for it not to generate an independent market, to not mean that businesses are going.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We're a bitco only business.
Speaker B:Everyone's spending bitcoin.
Speaker B:We believe in bitcoin, let's go for it.
Speaker B:Because the people I know who are passionate about it, like you and I, I don't know whether you use it, they tend, they tend to sit on it like a dragon, like smorg or whatever it was called.
Speaker A:You know, I use it.
Speaker A:It's money.
Speaker A:You know, the people that I know who are all in on bitcoin have to use it because it's their money.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay, so like, do you think they're doing their tax returns?
Speaker B:Do they?
Speaker B:Because they must be triggering.
Speaker B:I mean, I don't know how are they using it on a very minor level or they're using it on a like, like I'm spending £10,000 level.
Speaker A:I think some of these people are the people that aren't staying fixed in one place for too long in the sense that, you know, you take advantage of the fact that, you know, if you can jump around to different countries and live in different places, which obviously not everyone can because everyone has different commitments.
Speaker A:But I mean, this is cool.
Speaker B:Kids, mate, it's going to happen to you.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:But it's this thing of.
Speaker A:It's this thing of, you know, how do we all respond to change?
Speaker A:You know, how this change is here.
Speaker A:This technology has been launched.
Speaker A:The genie can't be put back in the box.
Speaker A:Pandora's box is open.
Speaker A:The technology is there.
Speaker A:It has an implication on every single individual on the earth because if you don't get some of it, you know, as you described, you're going to be left later on having to work very hard for it.
Speaker A:And by the time when you're working very hard for it, in 10 years, 20 years down the line, you're not going to be able to get as much of it as you could have today had you just done some homework, read a little bit about it and got involved.
Speaker B:I mean, it's interesting when you talk about the moving around.
Speaker B:I mean, I find this a bit like remote working, you know, and some of the people you can be passionate about, you know, being very left wings and don't feel people are paying enough taxes.
Speaker B:Also remote work and don't really pay any tax because they're like, oh, I can go live in a warmer place or not.
Speaker B:So there's that flexibility of being moving around.
Speaker B:I mean, that's sort of, I don't know, that's, that's, that's a tricky one.
Speaker B:Let's say we are stuck here and let's say our business stuck here.
Speaker B:Yeah, what you just said, maybe the answer like, well, I would spend a little.
Speaker B:I mean, maybe don't spend any time.
Speaker B:Maybe just start accumulating some bitcoin and then, and then when you say your people, you know, use it, do they, what is the primary way they would use it?
Speaker B:They put it back into pounds to go into the shop to buy what they want each time they need to buy something because not everyone accepts it, do they?
Speaker A:So they would, you know, I mean, you're supporting a peer to peer economy.
Speaker A:So if you find a bitcoiner that's selling something that you want, you would buy something.
Speaker B:It becomes just within that world.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Do you find, what do you find that community?
Speaker B:Like you're, you're, you're, you're obviously coming from an art point of view.
Speaker B:Is it, is it very young?
Speaker B:Is it tend to be from certain countries?
Speaker B:Is there any flavor to it?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think it's like one of the most beautiful communities that I've ever been part of in my life because it is completely open to everyone.
Speaker A:All it requires is that you take an interest and you want to be part of something.
Speaker A:And it has no barriers, it has zero barriers.
Speaker A:How many barriers does the pound coin have to people in Afghanistan or in Africa?
Speaker A:You know, money is such a kind of restricted construct for so many people.
Speaker A:And here we have a money that every single person on earth can take part of and there is no one man at the top running the show.
Speaker A:So I mean, I mean it's, it's black, white, male, female, young, old and everything in between of all tribes, colors, nations.
Speaker A:It's just, I mean, it's beautiful, genuinely.
Speaker A:And it's, it's this when you see it at that, you know, there's a kind of thing people always ask on the podcast, you know, what's your, you know, what was your orange pill moment?
Speaker A:When did you find out?
Speaker A:When did you learn about bitcoin and get into, into it?
Speaker A:And actually the question I think is more interesting is when did you actually step outside of being behind the screen and just kind of learning about it online and actually go and find your local meetup and start meeting other bitcoiners and just making find your local meter?
Speaker A:How did I find my local?
Speaker B:How does one find a local?
Speaker A:I started my local meetup and there are local meetups all across the country.
Speaker B:How do you find them though?
Speaker B:Do you just Google it though?
Speaker A:I mean, if you're in the uk, there's a great website called Bitcoin Events UK which is run by a friend of mine.
Speaker A:And yeah, he kind of updates all of the.
Speaker A:All of the events that are happening in the uk, as I said, this is happening.
Speaker B:But there are events to go to.
Speaker B:Why do I need to go to.
Speaker B:I don't go to a bank to have a party.
Speaker B:What am I going to?
Speaker B:The event just to hang out.
Speaker A:You're going to an event to learn more and to connect with other people who are using this money.
Speaker A:I mean, if you are trying to start using money in a different, different economy, you know, who are you going to transact with?
Speaker A:Who are you going to spend your bitcoin on?
Speaker A:You know, you want to buy a piece of art, you want to buy a book, you want to buy something, you want to buy some food, you know, you want to sell some food, you want to sell some clothes, you want to sell anything.
Speaker A:You know, think of all the hurdles that you have to go through.
Speaker A:And I know that it sounds.
Speaker B:Well, I'm seriously thinking of the tax, to be honest.
Speaker B:I'm just thinking, like, there is a big issue there.
Speaker B:I think people are ignoring it.
Speaker B:I think it's a bit like selling on ebay day.
Speaker B:You know, people just traditionally just, you know, you'd speak to people and they'd be terribly surprised.
Speaker B:They're like, yeah, but you're.
Speaker B:This is a business.
Speaker B:You're making money.
Speaker B:You've got to pay tax.
Speaker B:What are you talking about?
Speaker B:No, no, no, no.
Speaker B:I'm just selling a few things on the side.
Speaker B:It's like, no, that's like taxable.
Speaker B:Everything's taxable, but, you know, so it was harder on ebay because it's hard to find out who these people are.
Speaker B:But at some point they're just gonna start.
Speaker B:But I guess they can't find the people.
Speaker B:Then they're like, well, I don't know where these people are, but I can see this person keeps transacting or something, isn't it?
Speaker B:So it's taxable because issue is they're going to need tax.
Speaker B:Well, well, the system may.
Speaker B:While you could build up independent movements, I mean, it's easier to do in America, that is in Britain, because it's such a big place and you get, you know, a lot of local laws.
Speaker B:So there's so much local power.
Speaker B:I mean, there's so much local power that a state can say, well, it's no alcohol, or we're going to legalize weed.
Speaker B:So in this area, we don't care.
Speaker B:These are our new rules.
Speaker B:So it'll probably spring out of America because it's really.
Speaker B:I'm not really aware of anywhere in the world that has that ability, that's the way their system is set up.
Speaker B:That someone could say, right, you know, we're, we're bitcoin only or something.
Speaker B:But I mean, touching on America, you touched on Trump coin and stuff.
Speaker B:I mean, obviously we've got the, the Trump going on.
Speaker B:What's your view on that?
Speaker B:I mean, is that positive for the bitcoin community?
Speaker B:I, I, I, I can't work it out.
Speaker B:And I mean, isn't he going to, then doesn't, then they centralize it if the, if the government start exchanging it like, but the very nature of them, if they take bitcoin more seriously, the government will, will start taking it on and then it becomes more centralized.
Speaker B:How does that all work or pan out?
Speaker A:I mean, if the government starts taking bitcoin, then they acknowledge that they have to pay government employees in bitcoin.
Speaker A:If government acknowledged that, yes, this is valuable, this is what we want, this is the money that we want to attain.
Speaker A:Then they, they tell the whole world that actually this is the money that.
Speaker B:You, Is that where Trump's going?
Speaker B:I don't, I'm not really, I don't.
Speaker A:Think that's where Trump's going at all.
Speaker A:And I don't, Yeah, I mean, I don't really take an interest too much in what Trump says.
Speaker A:I mean, the reality is, yeah, any, any news, no publicity is bad news or whatever they say, you know, so he's talking about bitcoin.
Speaker A:It's in the papers.
Speaker A:More people are kind of getting that buzzword.
Speaker B:Yeah, but you would say this is the future of money, not a speculative asset.
Speaker A:Yeah, and it's not a faith thing either.
Speaker A:As you said, it's not about faith.
Speaker A:It's just about mathematics, code and understanding the principles of what's going on here.
Speaker A:This is a decentralized network.
Speaker A:You know, how do you turn it off?
Speaker A:You know, if you can tell me example of how this thing ends, when humanity ends or when an, or when an asteroid hits Earth, that's when Bitcoin ends.
Speaker A:Because it's just a piece of software that anyone has the right to run anywhere in the world.
Speaker A:You buy a piece of hardware, you start running it.
Speaker A:If, if we, if we, if the government or governments try to crack down on the whole thing, that is a much worse state affairs.
Speaker A:That is full on global totalitarianism, which is a thing that most people are not going to sit by and just let happen.
Speaker B:And then for you, you know, when, when did you get into this?
Speaker B: w, I mean, it was invented in: Speaker A:I mean, when do you get into injustice?
Speaker A:When do you get into the realizing that things aren't quite right in the world and then trying to go down the rabbit hole of realizing, why do we always have wars?
Speaker A:Why do we always have these problems?
Speaker A:Why do we have these same problems?
Speaker A:Why have the same problems that I've read about and been taught about in my history books keep happening in my own life?
Speaker A:And why do I, you know, why?
Speaker A:Why is that?
Speaker B:Well, that's a very different question than what I'm asking, which is just more like, you know, when did you become interested in this subject?
Speaker A:I became interested in bitcoin during COVID Covid.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah, because I had a bit of time to kind of.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And it popped up and a friend told me and I thought, right, I'm going to start reading.
Speaker A:And obviously I, you know, popped up on my radar in the years past, and I sort of never really had the interest or whatever.
Speaker A:What is this?
Speaker A:Tech money?
Speaker A:Geek money?
Speaker B:Well, that's an interesting point because I always this.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, I remember talking to this old man who was an Indian investor and.
Speaker B:And he owned property around the world.
Speaker B:I said, oh, you don't own anything in London.
Speaker B:And he looked at me with a sort of rye smile and sort of said, andrew.
Speaker B:And he's an old man.
Speaker B:He must have been 80 when I chatted to him.
Speaker B:And he was like, every five, ten years I look at London and I think it's overpriced.
Speaker B:And every five, 10 years I look at London and think it's overpriced and think at the same time, you know, it's like he'd keep missing the boat.
Speaker B:And he says, I'm still in that place.
Speaker B:I think that is the bitcoin journey to a lot of people.
Speaker B:You know, I remember being in.
Speaker B: I was in: Speaker B:And we all agreed at lunch that everyone was telling us about bitcoin.
Speaker B:We're like, great, lunch.
Speaker B:A bunch of entrepreneurs.
Speaker B:Go buy us, Tommy.
Speaker B:You still owe me a bitcoin.
Speaker B:Go buy us all a bitcoin.
Speaker B:Which is 100 pound.
Speaker B:At the time, I think it was 50 pounds.
Speaker B:So we all gave him 50 pounds.
Speaker B:And then next time we saw him, he said, great to get the bitcoin.
Speaker B:Said, no, by the time I went to buy, it was massively overpriced.
Speaker B:So I brought litecoin, you know, and this is a long running joke between me and Tom because I still think he owes me a bitcoin but that showed it even there.
Speaker B:I mean by the time he'd left the table and got around to doing on a computer a week later, I remember in even earlier.
Speaker B:So it only been around a while and a guy working here wanted to start mining it and I mean I was up for saying yeah but he asked me when I was on holiday, I came back and then he was like forget it, forget it, it's gone up too much price.
Speaker B:Not worth doing anym.
Speaker B:Because he was going to take a couple of computer servers and run it.
Speaker B:That's that feeling.
Speaker B:But don't let that feeling bother you because if that's the feeling you have now, just, just, just get involved.
Speaker B:I think the community is interesting because I feel like, I feel like people if you're going to, you know, I'm not sure about this stockpiling it that isn't feel right.
Speaker B:I prefer to become involved in community and maybe start trying to use it and find other people to trade with because that's more to yours.
Speaker A:Your utopia, it's not about stock but.
Speaker B:It'S, I mean no, but that's what people are doing.
Speaker B:Let's just be real.
Speaker B:But the people are just stopped by.
Speaker A:Which is, which is a logical human reaction to having some information which you understand.
Speaker A:And here is the reality of it.
Speaker A:Here is the hardest money humanity's ever made.
Speaker B:Hardest is in tough, uncrackable, unfuckable, unfuckable money.
Speaker A:Here is the hardest money we've ever made.
Speaker A:Most people are sleeping.
Speaker A:What else are you going to do?
Speaker A:You're going to, you're just going to sit back and be like oh, you know, I've got a bit, you know, I'll wait for everyone else to catch up.
Speaker A:No, I mean this is the thing thing.
Speaker A:It's yeah human nature.
Speaker B:I think, I think we all, we would love governments to be better at their job but if you've ever tried to manage three people down to a train station and on a train, you know how complicated it gets.
Speaker B:But you know I think we, a lot of us just become.
Speaker B:Which is which I like what you're saying because a lot of us has become very big state.
Speaker B:You know, even if you talk to my old man about how much we all expect everything to be looked after now.
Speaker B:Oh, you know, I'm going to be looked after.
Speaker B:I'm going to get health service, I'm going to get.
Speaker B:I deserve this, I deserve.
Speaker B:These are My rules, right.
Speaker B:You know, we've mixed up all different methodology.
Speaker B:We've taken some of America and we take, and we're like, oh yeah, that's, you know, I don't want to take risk and I deserve all these things.
Speaker B:Entitlement, you know, the, the, the curse of the modern age.
Speaker B:And this is the flip of that saying, you know, don't, don't, don't expect government to sort this all out for you, be independent, sort it out yourself.
Speaker B:But by being in a community you can trade with one another, which I find interesting.
Speaker B:Now the tax is a problem that everyone's ignoring.
Speaker B:I know as a tax person it's a problem because you only have a small allow year, you know, you've got, you know, it's gone down again.
Speaker B:It was, it was 10,000, it's 5,000.
Speaker B:I think we're at £3,000.
Speaker B:You've got about £3,000 capital gains a year.
Speaker B:So assuming you were using this money on a daily basis and assuming it was going up and assuming most people probably spend a couple of grand a month, you're going to end up with a tax charge on your use of money at the end of the year.
Speaker B:Now that's a bit of a, that's a bit of a problem.
Speaker B:And that means that then people will want to move to places that don't tax Bitcoin.
Speaker B:And, and I mean Portugal, for instance, you, they don't tax Bitcoin, but you have to hold it for a year so you could buy some and then after a year you could use it.
Speaker B:But some point someone's going to start saying that bitcoin is all turn up there, the ones without kids in schools and you know, parents dying or something, you know, and this is going to be a curious old world to live in at that point because it will sort of be, if you live here, accumulate it, you know, if you live somewhere else, spend it, it.
Speaker B:But anyway, my point of why I like people spending it is that's the only way you're going to create the independent market.
Speaker B:It already exists, but that's only going away.
Speaker B:You're going to create corporations of scale.
Speaker B:I mean, for instance, do you know what is the biggest company?
Speaker B:You know, is there any corporation for one?
Speaker B:That's the correct word, I guess a company of scale who is functional currency is Bitcoin.
Speaker B:And they are running, they are paying their people, they are building.
Speaker B:I mean the biggest businesses must be tiny, aren't they?
Speaker B:Or there's some big ones.
Speaker A:There is a massive American business, business Is it.
Speaker A:Which has the largest corporate holding of bitcoin.
Speaker B:They pay their staff in it.
Speaker A:I don't know if they pay their staff in it.
Speaker A:They just hoard tons of bitcoin and their.
Speaker B:That doesn't sound so good.
Speaker A:Their founder isn't.
Speaker A:Is an idol for lots of bitcoiners.
Speaker A:But as we learn over time, you know, slay all your idols because, you know, they become bad actors.
Speaker B:Money corrupts.
Speaker B:I mean that's the simple.
Speaker B:That's the simple truth.
Speaker B:I mean it's very.
Speaker B:Money and power have very rare.
Speaker B:It doesn't.
Speaker B:You know, Singapore's the only example of a.
Speaker B:Of a country that has become more liberal over time.
Speaker B:A dictatorship that's become more liberal over time.
Speaker A:Yeah, but I would argue that we've kind of had corruptible money for a very long time in human history.
Speaker B:I think that's the real conversation.
Speaker B:I think.
Speaker B:I think the real conversation is they're lying about inflation.
Speaker B:The government has got to a point that they can't tell the truth anymore more and they're perpetuating a lie.
Speaker B:I mean, they fiddle with inflation figures.
Speaker B:By what do they count?
Speaker B:They are printing money for a long period now in order to pay it.
Speaker B:So there's massive inflation.
Speaker B:So people are thinking, oh, it's all right for the baby boomers, you know, they bought a house.
Speaker B:I can't buy a house.
Speaker B:And it's like, yeah, it's not really their fault.
Speaker B:They just started printing money and everything that's physical, you know, owning assets is accumulating relative to.
Speaker B:To this.
Speaker B:And I think that's the real horror.
Speaker B:They, I mean really, they should stop that regardless.
Speaker B:I mean, if they stop printing money.
Speaker A:But they will never stop printing money.
Speaker B:Well, they never used to.
Speaker A:Throughout human history, those who control the issue of money have always abused that power.
Speaker B:I mean, bitcoin offers that solution and actually could offer its tax anyway.
Speaker B:Very interesting.
Speaker A:The tax thing is a very.
Speaker A:Is.
Speaker A:Is a complex thing.
Speaker B:It's a problem.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:I mean it's, it's.
Speaker A:It's a.
Speaker A:It's a problem for those who think it's a problem.
Speaker B:It's a problem for those who actually aren't ignoring it.
Speaker B:Because I would imagine most.
Speaker B:I bet, I can't help it as a tax person, but I bet in the bitcoin community, so few are doing their taxes right and at some point it will blow up.
Speaker A:This is thing like so many people, I'm sure in other realms of world are not doing their taxes right.
Speaker B:They have the bank statements.
Speaker B:They can get the data and they can get it from bitcoin, I guess, eventually.
Speaker B:So now that you know when you do a tax, I mean it is on you.
Speaker B:You know, tax, tax is based on.
Speaker A:You and all this tax stuff.
Speaker A:I'm not sure we're going to put this tax stuff in the chat.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:Like, I know it's a key issue, but it's like, what do we say?
Speaker B:No, but it's a really important issue because ultimately you say, why can't you use it to buy stuff?
Speaker B:It's like, I mean, we accept bitcoin, people don't pay in it.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, but of course, but I mean the reality is, you know, bitcoiners understand that there is a bigger problem which is that, you know, bitcoin is think taxation is thinking theft.
Speaker B:Do they.
Speaker A:A lot of people in the space think taxation is theft.
Speaker B:I mean that's, that's counterintuitive to the.
Speaker A:Of course, of course the narrative, the lovely picture the government created.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, the left wing movement is generally tax, tax, tax, more tax.
Speaker A:Sure, yeah, but it's theft.
Speaker A:I mean it's.
Speaker A:Government is a racket.
Speaker B:Probably, probably for a lot of people that's a step too far because probably for a lot of people you need some sort of.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And government has done a lot of good things and this is a thing we have to defend all of the, all of the institutions that have come into existence.
Speaker A:But it's just the acknowledgment that over time things lose, lose their ability to do the good that they started out.
Speaker A:And if, and if things can't change and be allowed to kind of evolve gradually and change naturally, you know, things, if they hang on to these, these institutions, then we have problems.
Speaker B:Your actual skill or your, your thing you do is art.
Speaker B:You're an artist.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the kind of art you do, what plays with.
Speaker B:Is it always about money?
Speaker B:Is that being.
Speaker B:How long is that, is that, that's a sort of, you know, let's forget about bitcoin.
Speaker B:Let's just talk about your art.
Speaker B:What's your art about?
Speaker A:Currently, Currently my art recently and currently since I started making art, is trying to understand what's wrong with fiat money.
Speaker A:So yeah, it's not about bitcoin, it's about what's wrong with the money.
Speaker B:And, and the Cypher Monk House.
Speaker B:If anyone can come, can they?
Speaker B:I mean it's an art gallery.
Speaker A:It's a, it's a pop up gallery.
Speaker B:Pop up.
Speaker B:Currently stationed at, just down nearby.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's like the most important thing.
Speaker B:People need to understand that inflation and printing of money needs to stop.
Speaker B:Like even if the governments, you know, they've got them, they're all broke, so they're all so, you know, but there has to be someone who's going to stand up and say, say all right, at least we're a sovereign country.
Speaker B:I mean let's take some advantages of Brexit.
Speaker B:Let's go down this road.
Speaker B:Now, you know, I don't even calling that the bitcoin road.
Speaker B:I'm talking about we ain't printing any money anymore.
Speaker B:Yeah, we're going to pay our debts, we're going to level the books, we're going to, we're going to sort this out.
Speaker A:It's just very tricky when you have, you know, elections and you need to stand for re election and you know, you've got problems, you've got social problems, you need to.
Speaker B:Nobody wants to hear it.
Speaker A:Nobody wants to hear.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I'm afraid, afraid we're after tax.
Speaker A:If you've got a button you can just print more money.
Speaker A:I would encourage anyone to watch a film called what's the Problem?
Speaker A:Created by a really good bitcoiner called Joe Brian.
Speaker A:It just explains this very simply.
Speaker A:Like an island society, two different types of money.
Speaker A:One money with all the valuable properties, another one with one magic about power to increase the money supply if ever the government needs it, which of course they're never going to do, never going to do that.
Speaker A:But of course this is what history has showed us.
Speaker A:And the other key things which I've kind of touched upon but haven't labeled is the cancellation effect, which is this issue that those who are closest to the money issuance, the supply of money.
Speaker A:Those who are closest to it benefit ahead of others.
Speaker A:So it's this, this, this real significance of the seigniorage.
Speaker A:The power to create units of money.
Speaker A:If that power exists with the human as it has through the Romans, the Greeks, the ancients, all the way back that power, that is the power that corrupts, that is the corruption.
Speaker B:So get that away from, get that.
Speaker A:Away from any one individual because you know, history shows us what happens.
Speaker B:You can keep dividing, dividing Bitcoin, yeah.
Speaker B:But therefore then it's almost like printing, isn't it?
Speaker A:No, it's not at all.
Speaker A:It's the complete opposite.
Speaker A:It's just like, right, divide it more, you know, it's just like, right, well okay, we, you know, that's, that's why the kind of fiat price is going up because we're realizing that this is going to reprice the whole world.
Speaker A:Everything, a glass of water, your day of work in the office, everything is going to be priced in bitcoin, in sats, you know, or millisets, or microsats, you know.
Speaker B:Well, it won't necessarily be, but certainly if we keep printing money, the system will continue to fail, you know, effectively.
Speaker A:I mean, the system is a credit and debt based system.
Speaker A:It will fail, it will collapse.
Speaker A:That is the only outcome for the system.
Speaker A:This is The Roman Empire 2.0.
Speaker A:The same thing will happen.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's going to take a few years, maybe, maybe a few decades, maybe a century, but there is only one path.
Speaker B:The Roman Empire didn't collapse due to its currency, though.
Speaker B:It collapsed for lots of other.
Speaker B:Was its currency.
Speaker A:Fundamentally, you need to look at what's going on with the money and the Romans, mate.
Speaker A:I mean, it's the same story.
Speaker A:You know, here they have like, you know, massive amphitheaters, celebrate, you know, this kind of peak moment of their civilization.
Speaker A:But actually they're cutting coins, they're printing more, they're using it as a way to kind of manipulate things and, and everyone is getting poorer.
Speaker B:Was that what happened to the Roman.
Speaker B:It was about money.
Speaker A:I'm sure it was nuanced, it was a lot of other things.
Speaker A:But I mean, fundamentally, if you start to look at history, really the whole history book as the, with the thread of money being the key kind of, you know, analysis point for trying to understand historical moments, you get a much kind of different perspective of why these things are happening.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You're not just being told, bad guy, good guy, flags and nations and borders.
Speaker A:You forget that.
Speaker A:You actually look around what's going on with money, what's going on with the bankers, who's, who's consolidating the wealth.
Speaker A:We know for most of the wars, you know, the central banks were funding both sides and providing loans for both sides.
Speaker A:You know, one little party in the middle is, is, is, you know, benefiting from everyone else's pain.
Speaker B:I feel like being a bitcoiner isn't about holding bitcoin.
Speaker B:It's just a mindset that you believe in it.
Speaker B:I mean, that's it.
Speaker A:As I said, what was my journey, Andy?
Speaker A:My journey is trying to realize injustice in the world.
Speaker A:Like you can't, you know, whatever that is in your life that opens your eyes to the fact that some things are fair and some things aren't.
Speaker A:You know, you look, you know, if you have that inquiry and you want to see why are things the way they are?
Speaker A:You know, eventually you end up here.
Speaker B:To conclude on what would you recommend then?
Speaker B:Is there anything, any website or thing, you know, something that's that.
Speaker B:I mean, you'd obviously listen to this, you know, but what else?
Speaker B:Is there anything else you would recommend to look, see, listen to?
Speaker A:I would recommend going on Bitcoin Events UK and turning up to a meeting and just talking to someone and seeing why another human being has decided to choose with the choice.
Speaker A:I mean, that's the amazing thing.
Speaker A:This is what, one time in very few moments in history where the individual has the choice to choose a different money.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You've mentioned assets and other things, which is like gambling.
Speaker A:You know, I've got a bet on the stock market.
Speaker A:No, here you have a choice of money for the first time.
Speaker A:You want to stick with the old one or you want to take a new one.
Speaker B:I think at the end of the day it's a really important conversation.
Speaker B:Money is at the central of business.
Speaker B:We have to understand these currencies that we exhibit in.
Speaker B:We live in a global world.
Speaker B:Businesses have got to decide what they're doing about it.
Speaker B:I'm not sure what the answer is for business.
Speaker A:There is no answer for business.
Speaker A:There is, there isn't.
Speaker B:Well, it sounds like maybe they should go to some of these meetings and just start being aware of it.
Speaker A:I just think individuals within businesses, it's an, it's a money, it's for individuals first and foremost.
Speaker A:This is going to help individuals.
Speaker A:So businesses will, you know, the bitcoin businesses that will survive are bits, businesses that are built out of bitcoin, you know, bitcoiners that start a business and it's a bitcoin business and it's on a bitcoin standard and it's not dealing with any of this old broken money.
Speaker B:Do you think, you know, shitcoins or.
Speaker B:But you don't, you don't think any of that will come to anything?
Speaker A:No, no.
Speaker A:I mean, I think the innovation that happens and the fact that there are people being able to use, develop, you know, developers, coders, the fact that people are working on projects, it'll all come to bitcoin eventually.
Speaker A:Smart contracts, all these kind of things, they're all going to join, they're all going to come onto Bitcoin because bitcoin is an open source money that anyone can add to.
Speaker A:It's an open book that everyone's just building on top of.
Speaker A:I mean, you think of like Linux as an operating system.
Speaker A:There's never been A competitor to Linux as the open source operating system because everything will accrue to the open space.
Speaker A:You've got your clothes, you've got Apple and Microsoft or whatever, but there's no competitor to an open source money which everyone contributes to.
Speaker B:This could be funny because we're trying to get to know you better.
Speaker B:But I'm not sure any of this will help anyone to identify anything.
Speaker A:So I'll take the wig off.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:Take the glasses off.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:You've come this far.
Speaker B:Oh dear.
Speaker B:Welcome to the Quick Fire round.
Speaker B:We're going to ask you a list of questions.
Speaker B:You'll know the answer to them.
Speaker B:Answer as quickly as possible.
Speaker B:D the music, please.
Speaker B:And what was your first job?
Speaker A:I was delivering flyers.
Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker B:What was your worst job?
Speaker A:Working in the restaurant has really lovely people in it, but it sucks.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And the people who tip you are never the ones you expect.
Speaker A:Totally.
Speaker A:Totally.
Speaker B:Favorite subject at school?
Speaker A:Maths and drama.
Speaker B:Ooh.
Speaker B:What's your special skill?
Speaker A:I can do keepy uppies and juggle at the same time.
Speaker B:Oh, can you?
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:That's pretty good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think that's.
Speaker B:That might be party trick, but I like it.
Speaker B:What did you want to be when you grew up?
Speaker A:Race car driver.
Speaker B:Did you really?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Did you ever do that?
Speaker A:I loved go karting when I was a kid.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:What did your parents want you to be?
Speaker B:Definitely not a race car driver.
Speaker A:I think my parents just wanted me to be happy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I always thought it was a bullshit answer, but now I stare at my kids.
Speaker B:I just realized I just wanted to be.
Speaker B:I just want to see them smile because it makes me feel happy.
Speaker B:What's your go to?
Speaker B:Karaoke song?
Speaker A:Town Called Malice.
Speaker B:A Town Called Malice.
Speaker B:Town Called Malice.
Speaker B:Who's that?
Speaker B:That's the Jam.
Speaker B:The Jam.
Speaker B:Going underground.
Speaker B:Office dogs.
Speaker B:Business or bullshit?
Speaker A:Business.
Speaker B:Business.
Speaker B:Have you ever been fired?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Well done.
Speaker B:What's your vice?
Speaker A:What is my vice?
Speaker A:I feel like I came up with a funny answer to this, but I've forgotten.
Speaker A:I have no vices.
Speaker B:Oh, come on.
Speaker A:What's my vice?
Speaker B:Working too hard.
Speaker A:Working too hard.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Working way too hard.
Speaker A:God.
Speaker A:I had a really funny idea for the top tips.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:In character.
Speaker A:Top tips for get close to the money printer.
Speaker A:Make the art that the rich and powerful want.
Speaker A:You know, and this is the problem with the art, you know, the art that's out there, the culture that's out there, it feels so hollow, it feels so insignificant because it's not really asking questions, you know, People can consume it in such a Passive way.
Speaker A:Way.
Speaker A:It doesn't provoke anything in many people, you know.
Speaker A:So my, my advice.
Speaker A:My advice to the young artist was going to be, yeah, make the art that they want you to make.
Speaker A:Don't listen to yourself.
Speaker A:Don't listen to the art that you want to make for yourself.
Speaker A:And that's make the art that they.
Speaker B:Want to make because it'll make you more money, because it'll give you a career.
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:That's very true.
Speaker A:Climb the greasy pole and never be fully satisfied for making the things that matter to you.
Speaker A:So, yeah, the real advice is just do what you care about.
Speaker B:Oh, the real advice is do what you care about.
Speaker A:Advice is do exactly.
Speaker B:I mean, AI is going to be very good at giving you what you want, I imagine, isn't it?
Speaker B:Once it works out what you want, it could be, you know, but it.
Speaker A:Takes away a lot of the magic of creation.
Speaker A:If you start creating with AI I mean, I think it's a tool and I, you know, we all use it already and it's, you know, it's a valuable tool, but like all these tools, it's just learning to have the right relationship with it so that it doesn't take all of your humanity out of you.
Speaker B:Well, there we have it.
Speaker B:That was a roller coaster of bitcoining philosophy.
Speaker B:Thanks, Cypher.
Speaker B:Thanks for doing it.
Speaker B:That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit.
Speaker B:And we'll be back next Wednesday.
Speaker B:Until then, it's Ciao.
Speaker A:SA.
