Episode 404
Can Improv Make You Your 1st Million? - Insights from Neil Mullarkey
EP 404 - Can improv and humour make you a better leader - and even grow your bottom line?
Neil Mullarkey (Comedy Store Players co-founder with Mike Myers, seen on Whose Line Is It Anyway and Austin Powers) shows how improv’s “Yes, And” mindset, listening with intent, and affiliative humour boost leadership, sales, creativity, and team culture.
We unpack practical tools Neil teaches at London Business School and in boardrooms across 25+ countries: running better meetings and Zooms, building psychological safety, using Pixar-style “plussing,” navigating change, and why funny people make better leaders.
What you’ll learn:
How improv drives creativity, collaboration, and faster decisions
The difference between affiliative vs. dis-affiliative humour (and why banter can backfire)
Listening with intent: the leadership meta-skill that wins deals and trust
Running high-energy meetings (in-person & remote): chat prompts, quick polls, and participation hacks
Why “Yes, And” beats rigid scripts for sales, client work, and stakeholder buy-in
*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*
Spotify Video Chapters:
00:00 BWB with Neil Mullarkey
01:20 Neil's Journey in Comedy and Improv
05:42 The Birth of Comedy Store Players
08:12 Improv Techniques and Their Applications
19:13 Improv in Business and Leadership
24:05 Effective Meeting Strategies
32:31 Innovative Meeting Strategies
33:35 The Role of Improv in Leadership
36:07 Handling Resistance and Transformation
41:45 Humour in the Workplace
47:32 Improv Skills for Personal Growth
56:27 Quickfire - Get To Know Neil
57:54 !Business or Bullshit Quiz!
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Transcript
Today we're joined by the legendary Neil Malarkey.
Speaker A:Yes, that is his real name.
Speaker A:Comedy icon, improv master, and the guy who taught Mike Myers a thing or two about being funny.
Speaker A:If you want to learn how improv can make you a better leader, how to spark creativity in any team, and why every business meeting could use a bit more laughter, this episode is for you.
Speaker A:Enjoy.
Speaker A:Hello and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.
Speaker A:I am Andy Uri and today we are delighted to be joined by Neil Malarkey.
Speaker A:Neil is a comedy legend, improv maestro and communication expert who you might have seen on Whose Line Is It Anyway?
Speaker A:Or in the Austin Power movies.
Speaker A:He's also co founded the Comedy Store Players with Mike Myers, where they still wow crowds every Sunday.
Speaker A:Beyond the stage, Neil's traveled to 25 countries helping teams spark creativity and better communic, whether in boardrooms or classrooms.
Speaker A:He is the author of in the Moment and teaches on London Business school Next level leadership program.
Speaker A:Neil, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker B:Thank you very much indeed.
Speaker B:How excited?
Speaker B:Well done for reading all that out.
Speaker B:I like wow crowds.
Speaker B:That's quite a tricky one.
Speaker A:Oh my God.
Speaker A:So are you really.
Speaker A:Oh, it's an absolute nightmare trying to read these things out.
Speaker A:But anyway, here we go.
Speaker A:So you've ended up writing a book.
Speaker A:You know, obviously your.
Speaker A:Your background in comedy and improv, you know, tell us what's going on here.
Speaker B:Well, I was in the Cambridge Footlights and so I was writing sketches and performing sketches.
Speaker B:That writer performer thing that people came from Footlights and went to Radio 4 in the telly, the Goons, Monty Python, Hugh Laurie, Stephen Fry, Emma Thompson, Olivia Colman.
Speaker B:But then I was doing a show with my ex Footnights pals in a pub, the Gate Theater in Notting Hill.
Speaker A:Oh, I know very well.
Speaker B:Above the Prince Albert.
Speaker B:And there was a guy setting tickets for us.
Speaker B:He was sitting in a wheelchair.
Speaker B:Not cause he's a wheelchair user, but cause we'd used all the regular chairs on the tiny stage about the size of this room.
Speaker B:And he's called Mike Myers.
Speaker B:So he made me laugh and I said, where have you come from?
Speaker B:Oh, Canada.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I used to be in Second City.
Speaker B:He said, second City.
Speaker B:I said, the Second City Theater, which is all the people who came from sat down live had been previously.
Speaker B:Second City Theatre is a Canadian theater.
Speaker B:Well, actually Second City Chicago, but then there's a Canadian one in Toronto.
Speaker B:And the touring outfit, he was in the touring outfit around Canada, kept not being promoted to the Toronto main stage.
Speaker B:Years later, of course he did, but he was Just, he just arrived, his parents are British, so he had a British passport.
Speaker B:And he knocked on the door and said, can I help?
Speaker B:Cambridge Footlights.
Speaker B:I've heard of Monty Python.
Speaker B:So he painted our set, was selling tickets for us.
Speaker B:I talked to him, he made me laugh.
Speaker B:And this Second City thing I'd heard of, because Saturday Night Live and the Blues Brothers.
Speaker B:So he'd come from this place and that was exciting.
Speaker B:And then he told me we'd do improv, made me laugh.
Speaker B:So I said, well, let's go and see some alternative comedy.
Speaker B:Which was around in the 80s, not many venues happening then.
Speaker B:So we went and he made me laugh doing funny things off stage.
Speaker B:Stage.
Speaker B:I said, why don't we have a go?
Speaker B:Let's do a tryout spot where you do five minutes.
Speaker B:If they like it, they give you 20 and they pay you.
Speaker A:So this is writing a five minute piece that you'd go and do like an open mic.
Speaker B:Yeah, an open mic, exactly.
Speaker B:So the first I booked the open mic and we didn't have sketch wasn't ready.
Speaker B:So we had a two minute sketch which is, you know the song Tequila.
Speaker B:So we had a joke which was, we'll say tequila twice and then say other words.
Speaker B: s a sports commentator in the: Speaker B:Da da da da da da.
Speaker B:That man's jacket.
Speaker B:Da da da da da da.
Speaker B:Then we open our jacket, it would say Tequila inside.
Speaker B:That went down as well as it's just gone down now, I'd say.
Speaker B:So we then had three minutes to fill.
Speaker B:So Mike said, let's just improvise.
Speaker B:So we asked the audience and he started improvising.
Speaker B:And I'd never done it before, I was falling, I didn't know what to say.
Speaker B:So luckily he was able to do Funny Stu.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And so gradually, gradually we got our sketch together which was Dr. Wicked.
Speaker B:Don't know if you remember in Austin.
Speaker A:Powers, there's practically a Dr. Wicked.
Speaker B:Well, he's the first Dr.
Speaker B:Evil.
Speaker B:Dr.
Speaker B:Evil.
Speaker B:So this idea of this flawed anti hero, the villain with sort of fallibility.
Speaker B:And if you remember actually in Austin Powers where he's walking down the stairs behind a sofa, there's a thing there.
Speaker B:And he did that for me in the street, walking down stairs, apparently behind a car with his body doing that, I thought, let's do a sketch based on that.
Speaker B:So we wrote about 20 jokes and slung together a story called Dr. Wicked.
Speaker B:So we had a screen Here, which was two kind of things I'd stolen from gasworks, you know, those sort of.
Speaker B:What are they called?
Speaker B:The plasticky things.
Speaker B:What are they called?
Speaker B:John Major tried to ban them on the motorway.
Speaker A:Oh, yes.
Speaker B:Come on, Dee.
Speaker A:You know, orange things.
Speaker A:Orange cones.
Speaker B:Traffic cones.
Speaker B:So I got a bamboo thing that I nicked from a skip and an old bedspread.
Speaker B:And we did that.
Speaker B:That was our screen.
Speaker B:So it was all kind of this.
Speaker B:So then dun dun, dun, dun, dun, dun.
Speaker B:That was a shark.
Speaker B:And this sort of.
Speaker B:We did Dr. Wicked and Dr. Wicked was invisible.
Speaker B:I was Dr. Wicked because he's invisible.
Speaker B:The only way to see him was to put a tea towel on his head.
Speaker B:So I wore a tea towel with some glasses attached.
Speaker B:Very silly.
Speaker B:And lots of props, which I always thought, you know, subsequently don't have props.
Speaker B:So Mike and I did that.
Speaker B:We did our show Malarkey and Myers for 18 months or so at the time.
Speaker B:Also she with Kit Hollaback, Paul Merton or Paul Martin as he was then, and Dave Cohen.
Speaker B:And they said, let's do some improv.
Speaker B:Kit had done improv with Robin Williams in San Francisco.
Speaker B:Mike had done improv with Second City.
Speaker B:So we had a go in Edinburgh.
Speaker B:It didn't go very well, but somehow the Comedy Store was persuaded to open on a Sunday, Friday and Saturday.
Speaker B:They did Stand up and we did Sundays.
Speaker B:Improv.
Speaker B:Nobody had heard of improv.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker B:You make it up, you get suggestions from the audience.
Speaker A:When was.
Speaker A:Whose Line is Anyway?
Speaker A:Lord.
Speaker B:Whose line was three or four years later.
Speaker B:Ever since Whose Line?
Speaker B:People know what it was.
Speaker B:They understood that this was a form where the audience gives suggestions and we act it out, we make sketches.
Speaker B:So it's different from Stand up.
Speaker B:So Mike and Kit taught us this.
Speaker B:We had a go.
Speaker B:We started Sundays.
Speaker B:Eventually we called it Comedy to Go Comedy Store Players.
Speaker B:And so the Comedy Store Players has continued.
Speaker B:Mike went back to Canada.
Speaker B:We've kept in touch.
Speaker B:That's why I'm in Austin Powers 1 and 3.
Speaker B: And October: Speaker B:So it's our 40th anniversary.
Speaker B:Just around the core.
Speaker B:Even older than D. I say.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I love the fact your surname's Malarkey.
Speaker B:I mean, he's my real name.
Speaker B:Nominative determinism.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Because Ori.
Speaker B:What does Ori mean?
Speaker B:Does it mean anything?
Speaker A:Huguenot word.
Speaker B:Don't know what it means.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, right.
Speaker B:It doesn't mean anything particular Malarkey.
Speaker B:Oh, must be a made up name.
Speaker B:Because when I started in the 80s, there was Mickey Zany.
Speaker B:And there was a double act called the Entire Population of China.
Speaker B:There was a guy called Bert Tyler Moore.
Speaker B:So Neil Malarkey.
Speaker B:Surely I made it.
Speaker B:No, no, it's my real name.
Speaker B:So my brother's an accountant.
Speaker B:My other brother's a chemical engine.
Speaker B: And so I did a show in about: Speaker B:Actually, my name means malarkey nonsense.
Speaker B:But actually it's my real name.
Speaker B:It's of Irish heritage.
Speaker B:And this is why my career as a serious actor has been held back.
Speaker A:Does that mean one of your ancestors did something and that's, you know, did something that was very malarkal or.
Speaker B:Well, there's no definitive etymology.
Speaker B:It emerged in America, the word.
Speaker B:And one people said there were some Irish builders who were always letting you down.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And they would give IOUs that were worthless.
Speaker B:So that's a load of malarkey.
Speaker B:Others say it's larking about, mucking about.
Speaker B:Others might say, actually the Gaelic omel.
Speaker B:Erka.
Speaker B:Some people say it's O erk.
Speaker B:So St. Erk was the patron saint of trout and ox.
Speaker B:So the original urk would have been as clever as a trout or as strong as an ox.
Speaker B:I feel I'm both.
Speaker B:So we're not really sure what it means, but people quite like the name, even though they can't spell.
Speaker A:When you first did improv, I mean, in those sorts of situations, did you find it, you know, hard to get your head around?
Speaker A:I mean, did it take quite a while to get good at it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But you can learn it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So this was the thing.
Speaker B: Second City started in: Speaker A:Only Second City, all improv.
Speaker B:Well, they actually do improv and they do written sketches.
Speaker B:Sometimes they develop a character or situation through improv on the Friday, Saturday after the show, in front of an audience who don't have to pay, then that develops things.
Speaker B:But they created the form.
Speaker B:But actually it was the son of a social worker.
Speaker B: In the: Speaker B:Maybe they were not native speakers.
Speaker B:So she created exercises to give them the confidence.
Speaker B:And it was her son who said, oh, those exercises could work as a form of theater.
Speaker B:So they developed them, tried things out.
Speaker B: And so by: Speaker B:So there's an ethos.
Speaker B:It's about listening.
Speaker B:So that's why I teach now to business.
Speaker B:Listen.
Speaker B:Work with what you're given instead of sticking to a script.
Speaker B:Don't miss out opportunities because you're too busy focusing on your agenda.
Speaker B:And that's obviously incredibly helpful for people in all sorts of environments.
Speaker B:Leadership, selling teamwork, collaboration.
Speaker B:When people have different jobs and different agendas.
Speaker B:And that sense of, oh, right, what you say is valid.
Speaker B:And I'm gonna listen and try and use what you say.
Speaker B:Use what?
Speaker B:Treat it as an offer, we call it.
Speaker B:And so the improv mindset, I'm on stage, I've got no idea what I'm gonna say, but I know that you and I will create a scene together.
Speaker B:And the audience loves to see that collaboration.
Speaker B:They love to see people navigating difference, enjoying diversity.
Speaker B:And when you watch a standup show or a scripted comedy, you're judging it by different criteria, is because you know it's been done before, it's been honed and it'll be done again.
Speaker B:Improv, they're very tolerant if you manage to stay on stage and not fall over.
Speaker A:I'm seeing Bill Burr tonight, actually.
Speaker B:You're seeing him tonight?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:He's a very accomplished stand up, but I bet he'll do some ad lib as well.
Speaker B:And there's a tingle in the air, isn't it?
Speaker B:Well, what's he going to do with that?
Speaker B:So we have the whole show of that.
Speaker A:Well, that's what my friend was concerned about because we're real tight on time.
Speaker A:He's like, please tell me we're not in the front row arriving late.
Speaker A:Which is obviously the classic, you know.
Speaker A:I mean, I think what's really interesting when you say it is you gotta listen and things.
Speaker A:But the funny thing is people have conversations all the time when they listen to each other and they develop an idea.
Speaker A:It's something about sort of being frozen in the headlights, isn't there?
Speaker A:You know, listening is one thing, but you've also not.
Speaker A:You mustn't be frozen with fear or whatever it is.
Speaker B:Yes, you're absolutely right.
Speaker B:Frozen.
Speaker B:Cause a guy called Keith Johnson, who was at the Royal court in the 50s and 60s and actually then went to Canada, but he said, you can be a good improviser only when you let go of the fear of being seen as mad, bad or wrong.
Speaker B:So when you come and see a show, there's times when people go say something.
Speaker B:And go, did I just say that?
Speaker B:Where did that come from?
Speaker B:And we make ourselves laugh cause we haven't heard it before.
Speaker B:But you emerge as an improv practitioner once you let go of the censorship, I suppose.
Speaker B:So the audience likes a joke.
Speaker B:They like physical, they like silly gags, but they love to see it when you kind of actually say Something you didn't know you were gonna say.
Speaker A:You let the subconscious free, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And that's joy.
Speaker B:Cause people say to me, what happens if you can't think of any?
Speaker B:And I say, that's a beautiful moment.
Speaker B:Cause I may come up with something great.
Speaker B:I might just go.
Speaker B:And the audience likes that.
Speaker B:Or one of my colleagues will certainly step in and do something great.
Speaker B:And so it's trusting the process.
Speaker B:And so people say, Sunday, you know, what have you got prepared?
Speaker B:Thinking, I'm gonna have some Donald Trump jokes.
Speaker B:And the way I've prepared for this show is to do it, do improv.
Speaker B:For 40 years, I enter naked.
Speaker B:Other than I've got the experience like any sports player, martial arts musician.
Speaker B:I've done it before, but I don't know what's gonna emerge.
Speaker B:I trust the process.
Speaker B:I trust my fellow players.
Speaker B:So it's quite a different performance from somebody who wants to get it right, who's rehearsed it.
Speaker B:Some brilliant lines have been written that have been workshopped, processed work in progress.
Speaker B:Try it out, rewrite it.
Speaker B:We are just.
Speaker B:It comes out.
Speaker B:And the fear that then actually becomes joy.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I can't get it wrong.
Speaker B:Whatever I say is the right answer.
Speaker A:You find.
Speaker A:Cause I freestyle rapper, you know, I can rap a bit and, you know, sometimes freestyle.
Speaker A:And it's the same.
Speaker A:It's the same strange thing that I can listen back to recording of freestyle and like, I'm.
Speaker A:I don't remember everything I've said.
Speaker A:It's, you know, it's a flow state, you know, I'm like, oh, wow, this bit works really well.
Speaker A:I don't know what, you know, my brain's just doing it.
Speaker A:People then say, oh, you know, how do you freestyle?
Speaker A:And I'm like, you freestyle?
Speaker A:Every time you have a conversation, you don't know.
Speaker A:You're not sitting there working out all the words that are going to come out of my mouth now.
Speaker A:You know, for freestyle rap, I'm just like, you just need to think of the story, what is the story?
Speaker A:And then your brain will wrap words around them, just like it does when you talk.
Speaker A:You're trying to explain to someone what happened to you today.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:It's fascinating that we find it so surprising.
Speaker B:Exactly that.
Speaker B:Cause actually, although funny happens in improv theater, we're actually trying to create story.
Speaker B:The audience kind of wants to know, does the dragon get defeated?
Speaker B:Do we win the treasure?
Speaker B:Do the boy and girl get together?
Speaker B:So kind of, you're in Service of the story.
Speaker B:And it's exactly that.
Speaker B:So I say to people when I'm on stage.
Speaker B:Cause they say after great scene in Launderette, I've got no idea.
Speaker B:I'm in flash.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Not hard drive.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Or you're in flow state.
Speaker B:Flow.
Speaker B:Call it.
Speaker A:Yeah, you know, so.
Speaker A:So your brain flow state.
Speaker A:I mean, I don't know loads about it, but for people who don't know anything about it, it's.
Speaker A:It's when your brain is completely focused on doing this thing, it has to sort of absorb your brain.
Speaker A:And then the consciousness is almost unable to be sort of keeping a track of everything.
Speaker A:It's just happening.
Speaker B:And they.
Speaker B:Did they put some jazz musicians improvising jazz in an MRI scan.
Speaker A:Oh, did they?
Speaker B:And they found the two things that kind of are subdued.
Speaker B:The responses are, I know what I'm gonna say and I care what people think.
Speaker A:Oh, interesting.
Speaker B:And that's it, isn't it?
Speaker B:You're not.
Speaker A:You have to not care what people think.
Speaker A:And that's really difficult.
Speaker B:What's counterintuitive is when you don't care, it becomes good.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:We tend not to say things that are horrible.
Speaker B:But when you do say something and you don't know where did that.
Speaker B:I meant to say cheese and I said chicken.
Speaker B:And of course then chicken becomes a great idea because we've done it and seen how the mistake, the error, the left figure suggestion becomes actually really wonderful.
Speaker B:Better than one you might have filtered and processed.
Speaker B:We love the process.
Speaker B:And the audience can see it's very transparent what we're doing.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:I said that thing.
Speaker B:She said that thing.
Speaker B:Ah.
Speaker B:We've kind of thrown each other a curveball.
Speaker B:But actually, no, then we hit the ball out of the park.
Speaker A:You could use jazz again because who's that musician I love in jazz?
Speaker A:He's always like, you must keep your mistakes.
Speaker A:He's such a Miles Davis.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, he probably said it too.
Speaker A:There's a British guy who's very expert, but he's like, his rules of making music.
Speaker A:Music.
Speaker A:And you know, in music it always.
Speaker A:The mistake.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Your consciousness.
Speaker A:Oh, I did it wrong.
Speaker A:I must fix that bit.
Speaker A:But, you know, whenever you're the external person or you're one of the other musicians, like, no, no, that bit's amazing.
Speaker A:Like, because it's.
Speaker A:You know, you could almost get into the AI chat, couldn't you?
Speaker A:That it's AI.
Speaker A:It's going to be perfect.
Speaker A:And we're going to.
Speaker A:We're going to even more than ever.
Speaker A:We're going to really value error, you know, because error is almost everything, in a way.
Speaker A:I mean, I can see in comedy how important.
Speaker B:Well, I'm going to make a career.
Speaker B:I'll continue my career of improv because so far, AI is very good at collecting what's already there.
Speaker B:And we in the arts know that sometimes the thing that you didn't know, that you tried it out in theater, we say we put it on its feet.
Speaker B:The artist kind of was wandering by, dropped the paint or whatever.
Speaker B:And that thing, the eye is.
Speaker B:Oh, I can make something of that.
Speaker B:So it's not luck.
Speaker B:It's called serendipity.
Speaker B:So there's a chapter in mine called Serendipity.
Speaker B:You're noticing possibilities.
Speaker B:So when you're doing your rap, you're not completely at the whim of the devil.
Speaker B:There's still some consciousness going on.
Speaker B:You're probably thinking, there's a rhyme there.
Speaker B:You've got your story in your head.
Speaker A:The consciousness going on is, what's the next bit of the story?
Speaker A:Cause you're making it up on the spot.
Speaker A:It's like, oh, what happened next?
Speaker B:And you kind of wanna know.
Speaker B:You've never.
Speaker B:You know stories.
Speaker B:So there's.
Speaker B:Behind it, there's some experience.
Speaker B:You may even bring a thing that may have been what you noticed yesterday, but you haven't put it in that order.
Speaker B:So it's not completely helpless, but it's noticing.
Speaker B:Oh, I said.
Speaker B:I said cheese.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker B:That could rhyme with please or something.
Speaker B:Or, oh, there's a character came in.
Speaker B:They could be the baddie.
Speaker B:Oh, oh, hang on.
Speaker B:Somebody came in with.
Speaker B:With a dress.
Speaker B:That's the whole reason why they fell in love.
Speaker A:It's sort of a different way of exploring your consciousness.
Speaker A:Subconscious, though, isn't it?
Speaker A:It gives you sort of a little more insight into what's going on behind the scenes.
Speaker B:I think it was E.M. forster who said, I don't know what I think until I see what I've written.
Speaker A:Mm, so true.
Speaker B:And I think that's interesting that people think creativity is linear.
Speaker B:It's not, because you can have ups and then there's God.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:If any.
Speaker A:I mean, God.
Speaker A:Do people think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, I wrote an album in two weeks with a friend and I remember he was like, yeah, we must carry on.
Speaker A:And I mean, we still laugh about it.
Speaker A:And I said to him, we might not write another song for 10 years, mate.
Speaker A:You know, you get moments, don't you?
Speaker A:It's sort of.
Speaker A:It comes, it goes.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's people's perception.
Speaker A:It's linear.
Speaker B:You think, well, I think there are certain areas of life that are linear.
Speaker B:So learning your lines, learning times tables, you've got to repeat, stop to repeat.
Speaker B:Spaced repetition is something I've learned about, given my son's doing GCSEs.
Speaker B:That's how to revise for us.
Speaker B:We know there'll be good moments and bad moments.
Speaker B:And actually sometimes what seems to be a bad moment then turns out to be a great moment.
Speaker B:And certainly when I've written comedy, you think, that's a belter, That's a belter.
Speaker B:I'll do that one.
Speaker B:And then that was.
Speaker B:And then the other one not sure about.
Speaker B:And then you try a thing and then that becomes the greatest bit.
Speaker B:And Eddie Izzard, who is also dyslexic, doesn't write things down.
Speaker B:He just tries it out and then records that night's show before tomorrow night's show.
Speaker B:So it's very much in the oral tradition of how he learns it, developing it through the spoken word.
Speaker B:So that's his triumph.
Speaker B:And in fact, you know, he.
Speaker B:He does things that you.
Speaker B:That are not the proper way to do.
Speaker B:Stand up.
Speaker B:Repetition and.
Speaker B:And mumbling and stuff like that.
Speaker B:Rather than joke, which may be the old standard.
Speaker B:His is foundering here and there and falling over and this digressions.
Speaker B:And then it somehow all comes together because it's.
Speaker B:He's.
Speaker B:He's initially from his work, he's improvising, he's letting what you describe as flow state emerge.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:He's got some ideas and then he cleverly builds on that next night.
Speaker B:So he's using both the structural brain and the flow brain.
Speaker A:How does this all apply to business then?
Speaker A:Where do you think it comes from?
Speaker B:Well, I come in and say improv.
Speaker B:It's not just making it up.
Speaker B:It's using a process that's been honed over a hundred years in the theater, which is noticing what the other person said and trying to build on that whilst also noticing you have a script in your head.
Speaker B:So people think ahead.
Speaker B:You all have perhaps noticed you're in the law.
Speaker B:Should we say tax in tax.
Speaker B:But there are people who think something of you and you're disrupting that image.
Speaker B:Dare I say not least with this podcast.
Speaker B:I've written a script about you.
Speaker B:Cause I've heard is what you do, and then turns out you're completely different from that.
Speaker B:I've written a script about myself.
Speaker B:I play a little game where we say one word at a time and very quickly you realize somebody's thinking of Three words at a time.
Speaker B:They're thinking ahead and that's stopping the flow because they're saying, I need to get to that bit and somebody in the.
Speaker A:And it works better if they don't.
Speaker B:They just have to go with whatever.
Speaker B:And the fun is when you have to make sense of somebody else's idea.
Speaker B:So that's sort of the improv thing.
Speaker B:The ethos is, I'm on stage with another person, I treat what they say as an offer.
Speaker B:So if somebody says, good morning, doctor, I'm a doctor, and I say, good morning, nurse, and they're a nurse.
Speaker B:So great, we've got a scene going and then we work out what's at stake here.
Speaker B:Mike Myers used to say, why have the gods of improv chosen this moment?
Speaker B:So, you know, why are the doctor and nurse here?
Speaker B:What's worrying them?
Speaker B:Do they have a relationship?
Speaker B:Are they in love?
Speaker B:Are they not in love?
Speaker B:Are they hate each other?
Speaker B:Who's the more senior?
Speaker B:What's the thing that matters to them?
Speaker B:So that's the kind of, what's the struggle story in the moment creation.
Speaker B:But the easy thing to say to people in business is improv says really listen.
Speaker B:And I call it listening with intent.
Speaker B:Too often we listen to half of the other person, but we're busy writing what we're going to say next.
Speaker B:How does that fit into what I've already got planned?
Speaker B:And of course, there are many occasions you do need to plan presentations.
Speaker B:Of course you've got a script.
Speaker B:I help people get ready in the zone, rehearse, et cetera.
Speaker B:But there are times when you need to be not scripted, because if you bring a script to a conversation, you're missing out on what matters to the other person.
Speaker B:You're not building on what they want to say.
Speaker B:You're hitting over the head with your idea.
Speaker B:And they may be the same thing.
Speaker B:They've got a script of what this should be and you're kind of misaligning.
Speaker B:Whereas the joy of improv is I come with half an idea, you come with half an idea, and then we co create something.
Speaker B:So Del Close, who was one of the gurus of improv, used to say, don't try and write the scene on your own newbie improviser.
Speaker B:Bring a brick and together we'll build a cathedral.
Speaker B:And so it's often in collaboration, creativity, leadership.
Speaker B:As a leader, what is your job?
Speaker B:To tell everyone what to say?
Speaker B:Or is it make sense of what disparate voices will bring up?
Speaker B:So I say, that's why I teach at London Business School is leadership is moments where you've got to just sort of think, oh, right, what are they saying?
Speaker B:Can I build on that?
Speaker B:Or there are times when maybe they're floundering, I've got to step in and help them with a bit of script.
Speaker A:Almost improv.
Speaker A:You're saying the people who need to be best at improv are almost the leaders, in a way.
Speaker B:Well, I think we could all be.
Speaker B:But I think that there is a sense that I'm a leader, therefore I should know the answer to everything.
Speaker B:And you might know the answer to some things because you've got years of experience, but there are some things, new ideas, new possibilities that if you stick to the old script, you've missed a possibility.
Speaker B:And a lot of what we face in the world now, uncertainty can only be sorted by collaborative endeavour.
Speaker A:If we're bothering to sit down in a room together and we're going to effectively do a bit of a creative process, if it's not.
Speaker A:Here's the facts, here's the facts.
Speaker A:I understand the Japanese, when they meet, you don't.
Speaker A:They don't debate.
Speaker A:So you turn up, you read out your statement, next person reads the statement, you get to the end, the meeting ends, and then you consider what they all said and you come back and adjust your statement.
Speaker A:But, you know, obviously the Western way, or, you know, the British way, you get in the room and it's all a bit sort of chaotic.
Speaker A:And if we're bothering to do that, we're trying to resolve something, aren't we?
Speaker A:And we don't know the answer.
Speaker B:We don't know the answer.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And very often you might have people with different agendas, so come to an answer that they have buy in because they've helped create it.
Speaker B:And often you're in situations where there is no answer.
Speaker B:It's a bit complicated or complex, even with Japanese people, by the way, I know they have a lot of side meetings.
Speaker B:Oh, do they?
Speaker B:Before that meeting.
Speaker B:So that's when the improv happens.
Speaker B:It's kind of preparing.
Speaker B:And what do you think?
Speaker B:What do you think?
Speaker B:So there's still that collaborative endeavor.
Speaker A:Actually, that's a very effective technique, though, for a meeting.
Speaker A:Don't.
Speaker A:Don't go into a meeting and try and throw, you know, chuck a hand grenade in and hope it's going to work out.
Speaker A:You need to work around where the issue.
Speaker B:Well, that's.
Speaker B:I have a chapter in my book on meetings because I write about leadership, creativity, serendipity, humor, storytelling.
Speaker B:I said, actually, nearly everything you do in work is in a meeting, in some sense, two or more people.
Speaker B:So you've got to navigate that.
Speaker B:And having a side meeting ahead of time is not a bad idea.
Speaker B:So as you say, throw a hand grenade in people in meetings of multiple persons will sometimes feel quite aggressive or they got to defend.
Speaker B:Whereas if it's just one on one, I can get a sense how you feeling about this, how strongly.
Speaker B:What if I said this people are.
Speaker A:Not confrontational one to one.
Speaker A:I mean, I think it's incredibly unusual to put two people together, even if they normally.
Speaker A:They're just not really people who would get along, that they're not gonna find a way to get along.
Speaker B:If you can have that kind of.
Speaker B:Of more transparent dialogue before the meeting, it takes time.
Speaker B:But then when you get to the bigger forum, at least that person feels heard.
Speaker B:You've got a sense of where they might feel uneasy or they might major on, this is what we should do.
Speaker B:So it just takes more time.
Speaker B:But it's not necessarily a bad thing to kind of see how people feel ahead of time, have an agenda.
Speaker B:What do you think of that?
Speaker B:What would you say this.
Speaker B:And there's some research that says it's worth having, that having a clear agenda.
Speaker B:What is it we're trying to do?
Speaker B:Are we just raising a few ideas or actually trying to implement?
Speaker B:Because often you might be thinking, right, this is the day we've got to nail it down.
Speaker B:And other people think, well, we need a bit more change.
Speaker A:Well, isn't that.
Speaker A:Are you doing problem solving?
Speaker A:Are you doing ideas?
Speaker A:You know, it's sort of.
Speaker A:Are you going into an operational mindset?
Speaker B:It's very often that people come with different ones.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So the facilitator needs to say, we're operational, we're implementing.
Speaker B:Oh, no, we're just bit of blue sky, let's see what happens.
Speaker B:And others will naturally want to.
Speaker B:Can we get to the answer now?
Speaker B:And I know as an improviser, scenes take quite a while to develop.
Speaker B:Initially it's a bit clunky.
Speaker B:You think it's gonna be about the cheese.
Speaker B:And it turns out they're ghosts.
Speaker B:So about ghosts.
Speaker B:It's kind of the initial thing.
Speaker B:And you may have found that with your work as well, the initial impetus turns out to be merely, should we say, a stepping stone to what then became the spine of the story.
Speaker A:Which is where you need good breadcrumbs too, because you'll have a meeting for an hour, won't you?
Speaker A:And then it's like, you know, know, where did you get to you know, so if you're doing Blue sky, improv techniques must be very important.
Speaker A:So, you know, it's.
Speaker A:It's good if, as you say, you've got some sense of your thoughts on a topic, isn't it?
Speaker A:But then, rather than going in and trying to sort of force everyone to come to your view, let someone start the conversation and keep trying to build and see where it takes you.
Speaker A:But everybody's got to kind of do that, don't they?
Speaker A:Like, if one person's not.
Speaker A:It'll screw it all up.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Cause actually at Second City, they have a director watching their improvised scenes, and they'll say, okay, end of scene now, bring in this character or bring in that character from before, or suddenly, major on the cheese or whatever.
Speaker B:We don't have a director because we do fairly short sketches, but we all know our ethos is follow the follower.
Speaker B:So we're all playing that game.
Speaker B:Oh, looks like he's got an idea.
Speaker B:Oh, no, that's where she's going.
Speaker B:We'll go with that.
Speaker B:In the real world, you're right.
Speaker B:Some people want to impose structure.
Speaker B:Others will just.
Speaker B:Let's just open things up and be kind of irresponsible because we know that'll lead to something interesting.
Speaker B:So, yes, you need to be kind of aligned.
Speaker B:Are we trying to get the answer here?
Speaker B:Are we trying to just open stuff up?
Speaker B:I think that's it.
Speaker B:And I would dare say, when I mentioned director, it's good to have a good facilitator who makes sure that all voices are heard, because some voices will want to say lots and some will say less.
Speaker B:And especially on virtual meetings, I think it's really important to get people to say things early.
Speaker A:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:Just get them to open their mouth.
Speaker A:The American technique of everyone introduce themselves.
Speaker B:Well, that's another one.
Speaker B:Well, I hate that.
Speaker B:What I was going to say is I never introduce myself.
Speaker B:I say, get somebody else to introduce you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's so difficult for a British.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Well, actually, not just Brits.
Speaker B:Okay, we're gonna introduce yourself.
Speaker B:Well, hello, I'm Neil, and I do stuff and it's like, good.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Whereas if I say, this is Andy, you'd be amazed.
Speaker B:But he's a tax guy, he's a rapper.
Speaker B:He's created this.
Speaker B:He does this.
Speaker B:I can say I can be completely immodest about you.
Speaker B:And also I can show that we care about each other.
Speaker B:Whereas if I'm introducing myself, whereas I try and get people on virtual meetings, just I look in their background.
Speaker B:Oh, I see.
Speaker B:There's a plant there.
Speaker B:What's that picture there?
Speaker A:Or.
Speaker B:Or put in chats.
Speaker B:Get multiple channels, put in chat.
Speaker B:Where are you today?
Speaker B:Not just London, but are you in the basement?
Speaker B:Are you in the living room?
Speaker B:Have you got socks on?
Speaker B:And things like, you know, in a meeting, the longer you don't speak for, the harder it is to speak because you think, I've got to come up with something really great.
Speaker B:Whereas if you get people very early on to say stuff like, hello, here I am.
Speaker B:Yes, that is a picture of my dog.
Speaker B:Younger self, my dog, whatever.
Speaker B:And I'm leaning in saying, oh, tell me more about the dog.
Speaker B:People are happy to talk about the dog.
Speaker B:And I found some research the other day.
Speaker B:Great way to start a creative meeting is to everyone tell an embarrassing story.
Speaker A:Oh, God, I can't even think of one.
Speaker A:I've got so many.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, there you go.
Speaker B:But you're okay with telling embarrassing stories?
Speaker A:I probably always do in every meeting.
Speaker A:But it's kind of built into my mindset to play the fool, to try and relax people, you know.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:You know, if you play the fool, you've extended the window of comfort.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And another thing, a friend of mine wrote a book called Sparking Success.
Speaker B:Adam Kingle, the lead writer on Friends, would often in the writer's room, say something quite outrageous, give a suggestion, which then meant, well, the other junior writers go, oh, right, if he says that, that's really out there.
Speaker B:I could say my thing, which is a bit out there.
Speaker B:Otherwise you want to stick to the guide rails.
Speaker B:I better not say something because we haven't done anything like that before.
Speaker B:Whereas, of course, a creative environment, you do want to extend it, even if it's just to say if somebody says that slightly crazy thing or.
Speaker B:That may not work, but what about this?
Speaker B:And so Pixar pictures do a version of what I'm saying, which is, yes.
Speaker B:And whenever somebody says something, you can't say that was a bad idea internally.
Speaker B:In meetings, this is how they do it.
Speaker B:That's okay.
Speaker B:Using that idea, I move things on, even if I don't use the idea you said in the way you might have thought of.
Speaker B:It's called plussing, which.
Speaker B:You can't critique somebody else's idea without some way of using it to move things forward, which means.
Speaker B:Which is our yes, and you accept.
Speaker A:But it makes the person really much, so much happier, isn't it, than saying, no, that's not quite what I meant.
Speaker A:And then, amusingly, in meetings, they often then say exactly what the other person said.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:And also, if somebody nixes you, you think, well, I'll just be quiet now.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:On Zoom particularly, I find that can be very isolating because there's no sideways glances, no touch of the shoulder.
Speaker A:No like.
Speaker B:Well, I try and introduce digital versions of that, which is thumbs up.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:Thumbs down.
Speaker B:Don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker B:Maybe.
Speaker B:I agree and I say, put things in chat.
Speaker B:What do you think?
Speaker B:And there's a neuroscientist who wrote a great article about this is parallel processing.
Speaker B:Isn't it great when you can ask a zoom room of 10 people, what do you think?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:No, what do you think?
Speaker B:Points out of five people, put it in.
Speaker B:You get 10 reactions in no time.
Speaker B:If you had to go around the room, you'd have to wait for 10 iterations in lockdown.
Speaker B:I found that the neuroscience was saying you've got to change the dynamic every three to five minutes.
Speaker B:So one person talking for 20 minutes is not helpful.
Speaker B:So put up a slide, get somebody else to talk, get them to put in chat.
Speaker B:So sometimes it's relevant, sometimes it may not be relevant.
Speaker B:Anyway, what I was gonna say in a real meeting, ask everyone, should we do X?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Rate it on a 1 to 5.
Speaker B:And then you might say, okay, right, Andy, you said three.
Speaker B:I'll come to you in a minute.
Speaker B:What do you think about that?
Speaker B:So Andy's a bit shy, but he's had chance to think about it.
Speaker B:I give him a moment to kind of prepare his thing.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So it's really important.
Speaker B:Zoom and teams need more facilitation than real life because we don't have that thing of somebody.
Speaker B:You can just see somebody shifting about to say something, or that sense of, I'm just about to finish what I'm going to say, which then invites others.
Speaker A:Plus, if everyone laughs at you on Zoom, or you put an idea out there and everyone laughs and lamboons it, it feels really horrible on Zoom, whereas in person, it would be like, you know, everyone be smiling at you and going, yeah, yeah, very funny.
Speaker B:You have to make it.
Speaker B:Make it more engag.
Speaker B:Multiple voices in.
Speaker B:Change the dynamic where you can get somebody else speaking.
Speaker B:If you're a leader, get somebody else to run the meeting every now and again.
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Speaker A:At BWB London.
Speaker A:Quite a lot you said here.
Speaker A:That's all really interesting in terms of different ways of sort of, you know, you've got to, I mean, break up the zoom and, and put stuff in chat and get people talking about anything sort of.
Speaker A:It's, it's, it's very inclusive.
Speaker A:All the stuff you're doing.
Speaker A:Very, you know, it's.
Speaker A:It's psychological safety stuff.
Speaker B:Improv is that.
Speaker B:Which is.
Speaker B:Some people say there's no wrong answer.
Speaker B:You can say anything.
Speaker B:We know sometimes there are better choices.
Speaker B:So, for example, somebody said today, you remember, like in Liam Neeson in Extras, do you remember when he mentions aids?
Speaker B:And Mickey Joe, which is not that funny.
Speaker B:So, you know, the improv say, well, okay, let's.
Speaker A:You're in a doctor's, I've got aids.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:So it's not a great choice because we.
Speaker B:That's how we describe it.
Speaker B:It's a Liam Neeson scene where they call him in, oh, my God, it's amazing.
Speaker B:And he's trying to do an improvised comedy sketch and very quickly gets to a very dark place that we know is not fertile ground for comedy other than we at home are going, this is hilarious.
Speaker B:Cause it's a fish out of water thing.
Speaker B:So what I'm saying, yes, it's inclusive because I believe in cognitive diversity.
Speaker B:That's really important to me is that I'm thinking this, but that's my script and you're thinking that.
Speaker B:And even when I say cheese, I know she's thinking Stilton.
Speaker B:He's thinking vegan cheese.
Speaker B:He's thinking cheddar.
Speaker B:Somebody's thinking, I don't want cheese.
Speaker A:Or someone's thinking, smile, whatever.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:So everyone's got, from the same data, all diverse points of view.
Speaker B:And an improv is whatever you say is the right answer.
Speaker A:You know, diversity of thought, cognitive diversity.
Speaker A:That's what it's all about.
Speaker A:It's just much harder to see.
Speaker B:It's harder to see when you're up against time, budget.
Speaker B:And I can talk about this because every Sunday for two hours, I do it.
Speaker B:And an audience goes home happy.
Speaker B:We create little stories and whatever I say doesn't matter too much.
Speaker B:It's the right answer.
Speaker B:There's no script.
Speaker B:I can't get it wrong.
Speaker B:That's easy.
Speaker B:I'm not answerable to shareholders or financial conduct authority, yada, yada.
Speaker A:But what I was also Wondering if you've.
Speaker A:You've got the leadership element of how you break up a meeting.
Speaker A:But actually, the improv thing is you kind of need to train everyone at the meeting, don't you kind of need to get everybody on that page.
Speaker A:Because if.
Speaker A:If there are a couple of people who aren't on that page, then it's like, you couldn't do improv on Sunday.
Speaker A:And two people be like, no, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Not playing the game.
Speaker B:You know, that's interesting.
Speaker B:I'm going to.
Speaker B:Without naming names, we have had people like that.
Speaker A:Have you?
Speaker A:Comedians.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:What I would say is it's not.
Speaker B:They're saying no.
Speaker B:They're just plowing their own furrows.
Speaker B: ,: Speaker B:We will have.
Speaker B:We had Julian Clary.
Speaker B:So we've often had Julian.
Speaker B:Now, the thing about Julian is he's hilarious, but he's always Julian.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Okay, so there's five of us creating scenes.
Speaker B:And it's kind of here.
Speaker B:And here he comes in.
Speaker B:He's the wildest man in the West.
Speaker B:He's the crazy gunslinger.
Speaker B:Hello.
Speaker B:And it's Julian.
Speaker B:And that's funny.
Speaker B:But you couldn't have more than one Julian.
Speaker B:Do you see what I mean?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Ye.
Speaker B:Paul Merton was similar.
Speaker B:You know, he was Paul Merton.
Speaker B:It's kind of.
Speaker B:He's the deep, dark, handsome.
Speaker B:Here he comes.
Speaker B:Hello, I'm Paul Merton.
Speaker B:And it's kind of.
Speaker B:We know that character.
Speaker B:But they both play the rules of listening.
Speaker A:But you said you could only have one, which is quite interesting one.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think in a team, you can have that.
Speaker B:Cause every team will have a bit of a lone wolf character who doesn't say much or says an obtuse thing.
Speaker B:And of course, I would say again, that person gives permission to others to say perhaps unusual things.
Speaker B:And also, I work a lot with management consultants and business school people.
Speaker B:We talk about transformation and change, and what do we do with resistance.
Speaker B:When somebody says, no, it's not gonna work, your natural reaction is, oh, they're a curmudgeon.
Speaker B:Let's exclude them.
Speaker B:I'm saying let's include them.
Speaker B:Why isn't it gonna work?
Speaker B:What is the cynical view?
Speaker B:Actually, that could be a helpful offer as to why we can make the transformation work or the new office or whatever.
Speaker B:And others will say, well, it's.
Speaker B:If old grumpy Jaws is involved and he's bought in, that means I'm gonna buy in.
Speaker B:Cause Even if the kind of the left field idea is still included.
Speaker B:So our natural reaction is to overcome resistance to tell Mr. Grumpy why he's wrong.
Speaker B:And I learned this with Ashridge Business School and Business School in Hertfordshire which is see so called resistance differently because actually it could be a powerful insight as to how to make it work better because I don't know how much you've dealt Andy with transformations and change and stuff.
Speaker B:I see it all the time.
Speaker B:New CEO, new boss, we're going to trans.
Speaker B:This is a new program, Strategy X, strategy Y.
Speaker B:Three years later I come in, oh forget that.
Speaker B:That's all nonsense.
Speaker B:CEO's gone.
Speaker B:We don't talk about them at all.
Speaker B:It's strategy Z.
Speaker B:People and excellence are now called people and technical or some whatever.
Speaker B:It's kind of the new broom.
Speaker B:It's whatever.
Speaker B:And I know know that a lot of these change programs there's somebody or multiple people going it's I've seen it before, I'll survive.
Speaker B:You know they just changed the name on the door.
Speaker A:Isn't that sort of mistake of leadership too that they come in and they need to be like sort of ego and I'm going to change everything.
Speaker A:When actually actually a lot of business when they especially in trouble, someone just needs to like just fix what's there, you know, focus on the problem, do the boring stuff.
Speaker B:What's going well let's do more of that and make some decisions.
Speaker B:Oh let's stop doing that.
Speaker B:And rather than the top down which is the new guy and it's often a man, he comes in heroically and changes everything and we all win.
Speaker B:And the reality is most businesses don't rely on one person, but one person can often set the scene for cynicism or can do.
Speaker B:And most people, most organizations rely on middle management.
Speaker B:How bought in are they or not?
Speaker A:How do you feel about British business culture in some of it maybe its weaknesses?
Speaker A:I mean, you know we have quite a consensus decision making.
Speaker A:There can be this problem in big companies that you know, the marketing managers making finance decisions and the finance managers making marketing, you know, we're all sort of round the table.
Speaker A:So that's a sort of counter to that.
Speaker A:You want to bring everyone with you but we can be almost too consensus.
Speaker B:Well I.
Speaker B:There are a lot of organizations that tell me and they're not just British by the way where there's multiple levels of decision making.
Speaker B:Now of course that's possibly helpful for ethical reasons, legal reasons, but it means that things don't always get done.
Speaker B:I Mean there's no right or wrong answer.
Speaker B:Because we all know that during COVID some of those decision making processes didn't happen.
Speaker B:So stuff got done, we got a vaccine.
Speaker B:But now we're discovering all that wasted money on certain things.
Speaker B:So checks and balances.
Speaker B:I think it's all context.
Speaker B:I will say to you, an improv scene is easier with 2 than with 3.
Speaker B:4, 5, 6.
Speaker B:2's a good number because I've my focus.
Speaker B:Now it's you.
Speaker B:Now it's me.
Speaker B:Now it's me.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Suddenly you get three.
Speaker B:It's kind of who's speaking?
Speaker B:Is it my turn?
Speaker B:Is it your turn?
Speaker B:They can work and they can work brilliantly, but it really requires listening.
Speaker B:Right, it's my turn.
Speaker B:I give way to you.
Speaker B:We used to do this with Mike.
Speaker B:We literally did a focus exercise where only one person was mo, but it was always a different person.
Speaker B:As soon as I stopped moving, you took it over.
Speaker B:Sometimes I give it to you, sometimes you take.
Speaker A:It's a bit like one person's always sitting or whatever.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:And it's a simple game.
Speaker B:It's called focus.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Because you can lose focus because everyone's trying to be good, which means the audience doesn't know where to look.
Speaker B:So what I would say is I can't tell you about your decision making process, but I know a lot of organizations, not just British, where they say there's too much internal shenanigans and it means that it spoils, that bureaucracy spoils any innovation.
Speaker B:We're too slow.
Speaker B:Agility is kind of being able to say, now we're going to stop that or we're going to do it.
Speaker B:We'll have a pilot now, have a prototype.
Speaker B:So it's hard to get to that sweet spot, isn't it?
Speaker B:When you're answerable to shareholders, Budgets tend to be yearly.
Speaker B:Just as you get bigger, as you get bigger, and of course there's more.
Speaker A:People to bring with you.
Speaker B:Well, again, do you know the Dunbar number?
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, 150.
Speaker B:So Gore Tex, deliberately, whenever a team or unit gets to more than 150, they stop it and it become.
Speaker B:They start another one.
Speaker B:Because the Dunbar number is, you can only, you can only know, kind of even weekly, about 150 people, you know, you'll know 10 people really well.
Speaker B:But the others, you kind of see them in the cantina, you know, somebody you know.
Speaker B:So of course I work in a small group.
Speaker B:I've never had to run an organization that's got shareholders and is quoted on the footsie.
Speaker B:Et cetera.
Speaker B:I don't envy those people at all.
Speaker B:But so many big organizations envy small organizations.
Speaker B:I see that.
Speaker B:I go to conferences where they invite some new entrepreneur and how can we do that?
Speaker B:And I know that the economies of scale, the big organization mean that some of that nimble is going to be impossible.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, it's brilliant.
Speaker A:And what you've taken because you've, you've taken, you know, an ultimate form of play in a way, isn't it?
Speaker A:And just showing how important that is to keep that at the heart of an organization, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:If nothing else, people say, often me, I've done this improv and I talk about uncertainty and complexity and emergence and people say that was great.
Speaker B:But we all had a laugh.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:No, you don't have a really nice way.
Speaker B:We don't have a laugh.
Speaker A:I mean for me, you know, we have it as like a central cultural pillar for us, humor.
Speaker A:Because I just think it is so important to again, that psychological safety, it's a sort of, it's a bit of a double edged sword because people can get sensitive about jokes but like we were talking about like playing the fool, there's some, some ability to use humor.
Speaker A:I think it's like the superpower of, you know, Brits and Irish.
Speaker B:I think it is.
Speaker B:And the research will tell us that if you're laughing together, you're probably going to do the job best.
Speaker B:The double edged sword you mentioned, and I found this out, there's affiliative humor and disaffiliative.
Speaker B:Oh, is that what it's called?
Speaker B:Because you know, bants.
Speaker B:Banter.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Banter mate, can be bullying.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:It's othering somebody, it's in group and out group.
Speaker B:Racist, sexist, misogynist, whatever can be.
Speaker B:And for me it's not humor, it's bullying.
Speaker B:Affiliative is we're brought together, psychological safety inclusive.
Speaker B:The boss says I made a mistake.
Speaker B:I used to be this, but I learned from it.
Speaker B:Affiliative humor, black humor.
Speaker B:You know, we're all in this together.
Speaker B:At least that sort of humor.
Speaker B:Gallows humor, I call it Gallows humor.
Speaker A:Self deprecating.
Speaker B:Self deprecating is how are we gonna get out of this?
Speaker B:We can laugh and it means you see it in perspective, which is kind of oh, we are gonna get out of it.
Speaker B:Or that.
Speaker B:Remember that time we were all tearing our hair out and actually we came out of it, we defeated it.
Speaker B:That's affiliative.
Speaker B:We come together, we found creativity, we feel we're all in the same boat.
Speaker B:Disaffiliative is you're different from us.
Speaker B:And also sometimes people do this thing of saying, well, I'm not much good, I'm a bit rubbish, aren't I?
Speaker A:They're sort of asking for a compliment.
Speaker B:Well, I would say possibly, but they're also, they're kind of doing themselves down.
Speaker B:There's a thin line between self mockery, which is we can all see ourselves in perspective.
Speaker B:None of us is perfect.
Speaker B:Fallibility.
Speaker B:Vulnerability is the source of creativity and collaboration versus I'm a bit rubbish, aren't I?
Speaker B:And after a while it becomes self doing yourself down.
Speaker A:Self fulfilling.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's kind of.
Speaker B:Oh, right, you're kind of laughing at I'm a bit rubbish.
Speaker A:It's true what you say.
Speaker A:Because actually when I hear the word banter and there's banter training and it's in the press at the moment, the banter's gonna.
Speaker A:I don't actually think of it necessarily in a nasty way.
Speaker A:I think actually think about me and my closest friends crying with laughter, just being outrageously rude to each other.
Speaker A:But actually you're right, it's a good way to define it that it's.
Speaker A:If you are knocking others, you know, be rude about yourself.
Speaker A:Self deprecate, you know, but don't be like, oh, you always, you know, make a stereotype of someone.
Speaker B:Be careful because what looks like a bit of banter.
Speaker B:Oh, it's not.
Speaker B:Andy doing his thing again.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Soon becomes stereotyping and Andy thinks, oh, I better not do that thing that I've never done before.
Speaker B:You and your friends being outrageously rude.
Speaker B:Rude, you know, the game underneath.
Speaker B:You love each other.
Speaker B:Yeah, you love each other and it's part and parcel of the game you're playing.
Speaker B:Whereas if I don't know you so well and I, and I've.
Speaker B:I've fallen myself into this trap thinking, oh, it's just a bit of fun and I didn't know that person well enough to go to that place.
Speaker B:Whereas with my friends I can just be outrageous because we've got years of history.
Speaker A:Yeah, don't do it with the French.
Speaker A:That never works.
Speaker B:Well, you're giving me racial stereotypes here.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know, isn't it terrible?
Speaker A:No, I, I taught, I taught my Italian friend.
Speaker A:I was, she, she lived with me for years and I remember teaching her about British humor.
Speaker A:And then I remember, like my friend came around and she went, you are bald.
Speaker A:I was like, no, no, no, no.
Speaker A:She's like, no, you said that.
Speaker A:I say it like this.
Speaker A:And I was like, but you don't know them.
Speaker A:You can't say that.
Speaker B:You don't know.
Speaker B:It's context, isn't it?
Speaker A:It's context.
Speaker A:I could say it.
Speaker A:I've known him 20 years.
Speaker B:You can say the most outrageous thing to your friend.
Speaker B:Cause you know he or she will say it back to you.
Speaker B:And that's the currency of the relationship.
Speaker B:The danger comes, of course, when you are bald to somebody you don't know that well, and it's not fair to them.
Speaker B:And we also don't know because they may come back and say, well, you're fat, you know, whatever.
Speaker B:And it's okay, it's okay.
Speaker B:But not everyone knows that game.
Speaker B:And so it's quite hard.
Speaker B:And so that's why I'm gonna say to you, improv is the best type of humor.
Speaker B:Because it's not da, da, da, da.
Speaker B:Did you hear the one about three Irishmen walk into a pub?
Speaker B:It's not stereotyping, anyone.
Speaker B:It's not a joke, which often can be trying hard to get a laugh and falls flat.
Speaker B:Whereas just a little bit of kind of, oh, I remember Dee yesterday, brought in his lunch.
Speaker B:He loves tuna.
Speaker B:Anything like that.
Speaker B:It doesn't have to be very big.
Speaker B:It doesn't be a big laugh.
Speaker B:In fact, there's a great book called Humour Seriously from a Stanford professor, business professor, with an improviser, and they run a course on comedy in business at Stanford.
Speaker B:And they said it should be appropriate.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, given how huge humor is, you know, to this country.
Speaker A:I mean, I think it's one of, like, most important things about.
Speaker A:I mean, and obviously humor's massive internationally, but, you know, I think it's way up the list for what we consider important, Ed.
Speaker A:And given how sensitive and complicated it is, it's odd that it's not, you know, one of these subjects we learn as a younger person.
Speaker A:You know, we just learn it in the playground through bullying.
Speaker B:And it can be quite.
Speaker B:Bullying.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, why isn't every child being taught these techniques?
Speaker B:Well, of course, that would be what I'd love.
Speaker B:But it started with children being taught these skills to bring them more confidence.
Speaker B:And so I. Improv did.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B: d with a social worker in the: Speaker A:No way.
Speaker B:It was underprivileged children, non native speakers, immigrants deprived children.
Speaker B:And it was a social worker saying, how can I bring them out of themselves?
Speaker B:She created these exercises and it was her son who sort of kind of took the exercises and that became Second City Theater.
Speaker B:So I'd love this to be in every school, certainly every business school, but every school where it gives every child the confidence to feel they can speak up in a meeting.
Speaker B:It gives them a chance to do little wry humor.
Speaker B:So it's going to help them create rapport because they're listening instead of.
Speaker B:Most of our exams now are, you've got to know the right answer.
Speaker B:You can't copy off somebody else.
Speaker B:The real world is dealing with, I don't know the answer.
Speaker B:We've got to muddle through and find a way through and copy of someone else and collaborate.
Speaker B:I can't do it on my own.
Speaker B:I've got to work with that person because they're going to implement it.
Speaker B:I've got to understand sales.
Speaker B:If we're going to do marketing, I've got to talk to it before I really understand how we can talk to the customer, whatever.
Speaker B:So it's highly collaborative.
Speaker B:Improv is highly collaborative.
Speaker B:It gives you confidence in uncertain situations, create rapport and use humor appropriately.
Speaker B:And also be more creative because you actually, you improvise with yourself sometimes.
Speaker B:And what's amazing to me is I often meet people, they come to my workshops and then six months, a year later, six years later, they come back and say, I went on an actual course every Tuesday for six weeks or a weekend course.
Speaker B:I thought, it's going to help with this.
Speaker B:It's helped with so many parts of my life.
Speaker B:So both presenting formal speeches, getting on with people, how to do networking, how to chat to people at weddings, how to get on with people I don't know that well at work, how to enter an environment where I'm not sure where I stand, how to speak up in a meeting, because that's a lot of people kind of, I'm told by their boss, they're great one on one and then come to a meeting and they're overawed because it's the regional manager.
Speaker B:Oh, I can't say anything, anything, because.
Speaker A:They don't want to say anything wrong.
Speaker A:And I liked your point about you don't have to be hilarious.
Speaker A:In a way, the funniest things are the silliest, surreal things.
Speaker A:Like you say, you know, I've, oh, I've got to go have my tuna sandwiches now.
Speaker A:You know, I mean, it's just a statement, but it's like, it's funny because we're having this serious conversation and now we're talking about your tuna sandwich and people like, what, have you got tomatoes in them?
Speaker A:And it's like, well, I didn't get the tomatoes today, then the next day, you know, did you get.
Speaker B:But you're being playful.
Speaker B:I would say some people say I'm not that funny.
Speaker B:And I would.
Speaker B:People say I don't have a sense of humor.
Speaker B:Everyone has a sense of humor.
Speaker B:But what I would say is, if you're not naturally like you or me, and I'm quite an introvert in real life, but not everyone has to be the joke teller, the center for attention.
Speaker B:But I would say, if you're leading a team, make sure there's enough room for humor.
Speaker B:So you don't have to be the joke teller, but you allow moments of levitation.
Speaker B:Let that person say a thing.
Speaker B:Start off the meeting with a smile, mentioning something.
Speaker B:And it doesn't have to be you who's the engine of you could be.
Speaker B:Because I imagine if you've got a hilarious boss, everyone's going, oh, I better not say anything again.
Speaker A:Well, I was about to say exactly that.
Speaker A:It can so backfire if you sort of trying to start off and warm everyone up and then people are laughing at your jokes and then you're kind of like they're listening to you.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:It's a status thing.
Speaker A:It's like, oh, I've gone to too far.
Speaker A:It's like.
Speaker A:Like your point about don't talk too long.
Speaker A:Yeah, this happens socially sometimes.
Speaker A:You know, suddenly you're talking and you get into this long conversation, then three other people turn to look at you, and then you're like, you know, now I'm like, now I'm like, you know, I'm carrying this conversation, and you just think, no, no, I don't want to do this.
Speaker B:So encourage others to be funny.
Speaker A:Almost don't be funny then.
Speaker B:Well, a part of that is it's allow others so know your moment and give it to somebody else.
Speaker B:And it doesn't have to be broad award gags, you know, everyone dressing up for Comic Relief.
Speaker B:Huge humor.
Speaker B:If you like big wacky out there, it can be just small moments at the coffee machine.
Speaker A:And, you know, what do you think is the biggest misconception about bringing improv into corporate or professional setting?
Speaker B:Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker B:Because people think it's about being funny and being a presenter.
Speaker B:This will help your presenting.
Speaker B:I do teach presentation skills as well.
Speaker B:And yes, it can give you confidence on stage, but actually, I'm talking about something much more profound.
Speaker B:The conversations we have every day.
Speaker B:Are we listening?
Speaker B:And although I'm talking about being funny, I started off by saying, basically, can we have Better conversations, more creative, diverse conversations.
Speaker B:The misconception is that not everyone can do it so often.
Speaker B:I'll get even.
Speaker B:Today I was working with a group and the boss said, I've been in your workshop, but some of our people are a bit shy.
Speaker B:Of course, I do it today.
Speaker B:And if you create the right environment, the psychological safety that I have through, because I'm standing on the shoulders of giants of improv, saying, it's just about listening, not about being funny.
Speaker B:It's not about being hugely creative.
Speaker B:It's just little moments.
Speaker B:It's about listening.
Speaker B:That's the misconception.
Speaker B:It's not about being front and center.
Speaker B:It's about listening and working with what the other person gave you.
Speaker A:Neil, you've been brilliant.
Speaker A:I just love everything you're saying and it's so important.
Speaker A:It's so fun to hear it from someone who's a comedian.
Speaker A:But what's one lesson from your time in comedy and performance that every leader should learn and why Every leader should.
Speaker B:Have as many conversations as possible.
Speaker B:They should try and talk to people at all levels.
Speaker B:Get out of the office, of their office, walk the factory floor.
Speaker B:The office floor.
Speaker B:Just listen to people, what they say.
Speaker B:So just get out there.
Speaker B:They call it MBWA management.
Speaker B:By walking about, find out the new person doesn't know the rules and they may have an interesting idea.
Speaker B:Idea.
Speaker B:Talk to that person and.
Speaker B:And so get out and listen.
Speaker A:How do you get that?
Speaker A:You know, boss comes along, everyone gets.
Speaker B:You know, the more you do it, the less they'll bother.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Because I'm.
Speaker B:I said this to once somebody with a very big construction firm, and I said, you're on the seventh floor.
Speaker B:Nobody ever sees you.
Speaker B:Just walk around.
Speaker B:Go to the sixth floor.
Speaker B:Just be seen.
Speaker A:You've got to put it in your diary almost.
Speaker A:For me, I'm so busy, I'd have to say, put an hour.
Speaker A:And I'm just gonna go wander around and chat to some people.
Speaker B:That is your job.
Speaker B:And this guy said, why would they want to see me?
Speaker B:I said, just to see you.
Speaker B:Because the more you walk about, the more they might say, oh, hello, I've got this thing.
Speaker B:So of course it is scary when the boss comes and looks over your shoulder, but just be more present.
Speaker B:So this is something that Jimmy Mulville told me, who's the head of Hatrick who make have I Got News and Other Brilliant television?
Speaker B:He asked.
Speaker B:The head of Radio 4 was called David Hatch, who also produced a thing called I'm Sorry, I Haven't a Clue, which Then became give us not.
Speaker B:Not give us a clue.
Speaker B:I'm.
Speaker B:What's it called?
Speaker A:Still called that, isn't it?
Speaker B:I'm sorry, I'm gonna call something.
Speaker B:No, he said I'm sorry, I read that again.
Speaker B:It was anyway with Graham Garden etc.
Speaker B:Anyway, his job, he thought as head of Radio 4.
Speaker B:He said he was trying to come because the BBC had lots of different entrances come through a different entrance every day.
Speaker A:Oh wow.
Speaker B:Just so he'd bump into different people.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, that was it.
Speaker B:So just somebody and, and somebody, the receptionist or producer just bumped into him.
Speaker B:Then they could say a thing without an agenda to try and come in.
Speaker B:And the other thing he said was every day he wrote a handwritten note to an individual saying really enjoyed what you did.
Speaker B:Oh wow, isn't that great?
Speaker B:That's great, great show, great sound, whatever or nice the way you did this and just.
Speaker B:And that takes time and energy and.
Speaker A:People, they really appreciate a thank you.
Speaker B:Yes, it's worth a million and, and a beautiful thing.
Speaker B:John Amici, who is a psychologist was actually the first British guy to play in the NBA in the States and he said that.
Speaker B:What are your.
Speaker B:What are the children of your direct reports saying about you?
Speaker A:What are the children of your debt report saying about you?
Speaker B:Because my dad was in business and I knew his bosses.
Speaker B:I know who the goodies and the baddies were because they were at the dinner table.
Speaker B:Of course he would say to my mom, today's done this.
Speaker B:So you kind of know.
Speaker B:So Andy, what are people saying about you?
Speaker B:You they go home and say well mister, Mr. Ori missed, you know, Andy, you know he did this today, he fell over, he, he showed me his bottom or whatever.
Speaker B:It's kind of.
Speaker B:Or he was really stuck.
Speaker B:What are they saying about you?
Speaker A:No, I get, I get it from my 6 year old who goes to school and spreads some of my nonsense about whether things are made in Germany or China.
Speaker A:You know, it's like, it's like, you know, it's all that but you.
Speaker B:What is it?
Speaker B:What is it that people take back to their homes?
Speaker B:Are you giving them a bird burden or are you giving them enablement?
Speaker A:Did you go and listen and give them a moment, allow them to express themselves, you know, that's so valuable to them.
Speaker A:They could have feel quite resentful towards you, couldn't they?
Speaker A:And then you go and do that and they'd be going home saying, you know, I've got it totally wrong that Andy's not such an.
Speaker A:You know, just some quick fire questions answer Them as quickly as you can.
Speaker A:Just to get to know you a little bit better.
Speaker A:D is queuing some music.
Speaker A:Hopefully you know the answer to these.
Speaker A:What was your first job?
Speaker B:Office cleaner.
Speaker A:Oh, really?
Speaker A:Very good.
Speaker A:What was your worst job?
Speaker B:Garage forecourt attendant.
Speaker A:Favorite subject at school?
Speaker B:Maths.
Speaker A:Very nice.
Speaker A:What's your special skill?
Speaker B:I can raise each eyebrow independently.
Speaker A:That is pretty good.
Speaker B:Some people can raise one or both, but I can do both independently.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:What did you want to be when you grew up?
Speaker B:Comedian.
Speaker A:I did.
Speaker A:You?
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker A:What did your parents want you to be?
Speaker B:Not a comedian.
Speaker A:What's your go to karaoke song?
Speaker B:I never do karaoke, but I once auditioned when I was a lad for the Cambridge Footlights for Hugh Laurie and Jan Ravens.
Speaker B:And I sang Questions and answers by sham69.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Amazing.
Speaker A:Office dogs.
Speaker A:Business or business.
Speaker A:Very good.
Speaker A:What's your vice or guilty pleasure?
Speaker B:Tsalata.
Speaker A:Is it really?
Speaker A:Never quite got my head around Tara Salata.
Speaker B:Well, it's just basically sort of salt, isn't it?
Speaker B:It's kind of smoked salmon flavor, creamy.
Speaker B:And there's a bit of rusk in there, so I could just eat it with a spoon sometimes.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You keep it in your fridge, do you, in case of emergencies?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:With crack cocaine, I'm sure.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Well, crack cocaine, you can serve any temperature, I find.
Speaker A:So we're going to just have a little bit of fun now.
Speaker A:We're going to play a little game.
Speaker A:You need a paddle?
Speaker A:Business says business on one side, on the other.
Speaker A:I'm going to name some terms and you need to tell us whether you think it is.
Speaker B:Do I?
Speaker B:This is going to be good on.
Speaker B:On radio, of course.
Speaker B:If I do that, do I say the word?
Speaker A:Yeah, say the word as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You're consummate professional, I'm glad to see.
Speaker A:Yeah, we're on TV and radio.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We can discuss them, we can debate them.
Speaker A:So all clear?
Speaker B:Yep, just about.
Speaker A:And we're off.
Speaker A:Personality type tests.
Speaker B:Bullshit.
Speaker A:Oh, really?
Speaker A:Excellent.
Speaker A:What do you feel about this?
Speaker A:Miles Briggs and all that?
Speaker B:Well, there's no scientific evidence at all behind Myers Briggs.
Speaker A:Is there not?
Speaker B:No, it's just two women said, well, let's do some.
Speaker A:Two people.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:It was Ms. Myers and Ms. Briggs, I think.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker B:I've got a feeling it was.
Speaker B:Now, I like the idea we understand different preferences for somebody who's thinking about the details, somebody who's thinking about the bigger picture, somebody thinking about is everyone involved versus what's the task.
Speaker B:But actually so many times that people said, well, I'M an entj, I'm never gonna change.
Speaker B:I mentioned in my book.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:When they, when you're labeled, you're told that's it.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:I have seen somebody talk about Myers Briggs and say actually it's a movable feat.
Speaker B:Different moments, different situations.
Speaker B:It depends on the context.
Speaker B:But the thing is it's dangerous.
Speaker B:There are other better ones, by the way.
Speaker B:Constellations and your blue, your red, your whatever, they're all spectra.
Speaker B:You're kind of a bit like this, you're kind of a bit like that.
Speaker B:But the danger is you get labeled and think I'm gonna like that.
Speaker B:I'm like that for the rest of the world.
Speaker A:Comes an excuse.
Speaker B:Comes an excuse.
Speaker B:And what I try and say is all the stuff I'm offering, offering whatever personality type you have been defined as, it still works for you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So so called big loud, extrovert, quiet, thoughtful introvert Actually I know I can play both roles and most of us in fact I think it was Daniel Pink the other day.
Speaker B:Talk about ambiverts which is if you're naturally this, you can play a bit of this when you need to.
Speaker B:So introvert, Bill Gates introvert but learned how to be a proceed presenter.
Speaker B:Extroverts learn how to be quiet.
Speaker A:Yeah but also the strict definition of introvert and extrovert is whether you get energy from people or not.
Speaker A:It doesn't mean that you can't be love a party it's just a party will tire you out, you know Whereas I definitely get more energy from like.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:But it depends again it does depend.
Speaker B:Sorry 5th but depends which personality you think.
Speaker B:When I used to take my children to children's party you may find this with your 6 year old still they're knackered, they haven't done anything but they're just thinking where do I fit pizza now is the entertainment.
Speaker A:Everyone's confused waiting for the party bag the party.
Speaker B:It's kind of I don't know what's going to happen and I know myself, I'm exhausted.
Speaker B:So I say to people go to networking events but stay for half an hour or meet one person and that's.
Speaker A:It depends on also the.
Speaker A:I was thinking about the extrovert introvert different transition thinking, well it's not quite right because my wife is saying what an introvert she is and how she had a terrible time at this school thing and you know, whatever and then I was like the thing is if I go to those things, babe, I'm exactly the same but if I go out with people I know, you know and love.
Speaker A:And then, you know, we do something fun or, you know, then I, you know, I could stay up all night and chat.
Speaker A:You know, there's no.
Speaker A:There's no tomorrow sort of thing.
Speaker A:So it's who you're with a lot of it.
Speaker B:And it's just tiring being with other people.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:So you'll come tiring even with your friends.
Speaker A:Yeah, eventually.
Speaker A:Is that part of.
Speaker A:I'm 47.
Speaker A:I've already realized this.
Speaker A:You meet up with friends and you're like, 47?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:You're like, why did we get together?
Speaker A:You've given up drinking.
Speaker A:I'm bored.
Speaker A:I know everything.
Speaker A:You think, I'm off, see you later.
Speaker A:And personal pronouns, business or bullshit.
Speaker B:When you say personal pronouns, you mean he and she and.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and sort of telling people in your.
Speaker A:When you write to people saying, I want to be called this or that or, you know.
Speaker B:Well, I've always thought if I'm talking to you, you're you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:My general theory is it's something that would really bother you when you're 18, but by the time you're 40, you're not really.
Speaker A:You don't really care what people call you as long as it's not, you know, effectively.
Speaker B:Does that often happen to you?
Speaker A:Yes, it does.
Speaker A:Now you come to mention it.
Speaker A:I. I was told a long time ago people find me weird, annoying, or arrogant when they meet me.
Speaker A:I was like, like, yeah, okay.
Speaker A:I'm not great at first impressions.
Speaker B:Who told you?
Speaker A:Oh, I sort of built this up over, sort of over time because I'd have quite a lot of friends after a while.
Speaker A:They said, you know.
Speaker A:You know, I really like you now, but I always thought you were really ex.
Speaker A:You were really one of these things when I first met you.
Speaker A:But I tend to overshare when I first meet.
Speaker A:I panic.
Speaker A:I had a terrible time at school.
Speaker A:I don't know, something goes very wrong.
Speaker A:So, you know, I'm trying to relax everyone.
Speaker A:I just look like a weirdo.
Speaker A:This is even going wrong and you're not helping me.
Speaker B:No, but there are plenty of people like.
Speaker B:Like that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it's noticing that you're reflecting on your.
Speaker B:Your own way of being.
Speaker A:Do you find this, though, when you first meet people?
Speaker A:Like, I don't.
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker A:I'm actually very wary of strangers.
Speaker A:And then once I sort of made make a decision that, like, okay, I'll have to get.
Speaker A:You know, it's like, I feel like I've got to tell them my life story.
Speaker A:You know, it's like a. I don't feel that.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:But I do feel Stranger is just a friend you haven't got to know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Very nice.
Speaker A:Well, I. I can't thank you enough.
Speaker A:You've been absolutely brilliant, Neil.
Speaker A:Where do people find out more?
Speaker A:How do they find you?
Speaker B:Neilmillarkey.com hopefully you put that in the thing, but.
Speaker B:Comedystoreplayers.com performing every Sunday.
Speaker B:I do three Sundays out of four and it's improv.
Speaker B:It's like, Whose Line Is It?
Speaker B:Anyway?
Speaker B:Come along, give suggestions.
Speaker B:Of course, most people don't give suggestions, so we rely on the 5 to 10% who do to shout things out, like movie styles or theater styles or whatever emotions.
Speaker B:So that's every Sunday, but.
Speaker B:Neilmillarkey.com and my book is called in the Moment.
Speaker A:I think you've been absolutely brilliant, Neil, So thank you so much for doing this today.
Speaker A:That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit.
Speaker A:We'll be back next Wednesday.
Speaker A:Until then, it's ciao.
