Episode 405
Culture Expert Explains The Difference Between UK and Italian Business Practices
EP 405 - Is Italy an entrepreneur’s dream or a business nightmare compared to the UK?
In part 3 of our Business Without Baggage series, Andy speaks with corporate lawyer Marco Pistis about the cultural and legal contrasts between doing business in Italy and the UK.
From relationship-driven deals to bureaucracy that stifles scale, Marco explains why British companies often struggle in Italy - and what they can learn from its unique, trust-first culture.
What you’ll learn:
Why relationships and trust matter more than rules in Italy
The North-South divide: how culture, punctuality, and payments differ
How family-run businesses dominate the market - and what that means for outsiders
Why bureaucracy and employee protection laws slow scaling
How UK businesses can avoid costly mistakes when entering Italy
Where the real opportunities lie: Milan, the mid-market, and creative industries
Perfect for entrepreneurs, investors, and advisors looking to navigate UK - Italy business differences.
*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*
Spotify Video Chapters:
00:00 Business Without Baggage #3 Italy
00:41 Meet Marco Pistis: The Insider's Perspective
01:38 The Emotional Approach to Business
03:50 Friendship and Business in Italy
10:25 The Importance of Punctuality and Flexibility
16:10 Hierarchy and Family Businesses
23:20 Employee Expectations and Labour Laws
26:07 Cultural Cues and Misunderstandings
29:15 Cultural Taboos: Money and Religion
29:54 Negotiating Business Deals in Italy
31:56 The Importance of Food in Italian Business
33:34 Challenges and Stereotypes in Italian Business
34:34 Setting Up Business in Italy: Banking and Bureaucracy
37:50 Tax Benefits and Wealthy Expats in Italy
48:36 AI and Cultural Communication
49:58 !Business or Bullshit Quiz!
50:22 Wrap Up
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Transcript
What's it really like doing business in Italy?
Speaker A:From six month payment terms to deals sealed over pasta, Italy's mix of passion, hierarchy and flexibility might surprise you.
Speaker A:We sit down with Marco Pistis, top lawyer, academic and true insider, to unravel the quirks, culture and contradictions of Italian business life.
Speaker A:Check it out.
Speaker A:Welcome to a very special episode with a special title, Business Without Baggage, a series where we dive into the often challenging world of global business and culture.
Speaker A:We'll be talking to our friends from around the world about what it's really like to do business with the countries that they live in.
Speaker A:Today is Marco Pistis.
Speaker A:Marco is a rare combination of top tier corporate lawyer and an accomplished academic.
Speaker A:He is managing partner of IPG law firm, advising on corporate law, arbitration and governance across Italy and internationally.
Speaker A:He is also qualified before Italian Supreme Court of Cassation as a solicitor also in England and Wales and has authored numerous articles on topics from AI to renewable energy.
Speaker A:Marco, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Now this is wonderful to be together.
Speaker A:In fact, the idea for this podcast I think is, is, is something you shared and, and helped create.
Speaker A:Obviously you, you know, you've got a foot in both camps and you've spent enough time in the UK and even qualified as a solicitor here, which gives you a, a nice overview, I guess, of both sides of the coin.
Speaker B:That was quite a long time ago.
Speaker B:Remember something, I mean, we're here to.
Speaker A:Discuss, you know, I always think the Brits and Italians have this bond in a way.
Speaker A:You know, there's, there's something that brings us together.
Speaker A:Maybe it's the rebellion, I always wonder.
Speaker A:But we're going to run through some questions and start chatting it through in terms of what, what, what is really like doing business in Italy?
Speaker A:So let's just start with an opener, shall we?
Speaker A:What's really important to Italy in terms of business culture?
Speaker A:So, you know, punctuality is important in Britain.
Speaker B:Oh, that's very hard to say.
Speaker B:I would say it's very important to dress well.
Speaker A:To dress well, as I'm slightly favored.
Speaker B:No, no, I'm joking.
Speaker B:Empathy is a point, is a very strong point.
Speaker B:We want to deal with people that we can trust and that are funny and that we can really bond.
Speaker A:Quite emotional.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:It's an emotional approach to business.
Speaker B:Absolutely, yes.
Speaker A:That's, you know, as an outsider, that's what I feel with Italian business, that it's very, it's very passionate.
Speaker A:You know, we, we have that quirky, humorous side of us.
Speaker A:But actually, what was, what was the joke?
Speaker A:Someone said to me, about British and Italians, an Italian talking about a British person having sex.
Speaker A:A British person is the sort of person who folds their underpants before, you know, having sex.
Speaker A:You know, as the Italians whip it all off and, you know, it's a bit.
Speaker A:It feels like that you.
Speaker A:It feels.
Speaker A:It's a sort of more passionate affair.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah, it is.
Speaker A:It's very interesting.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:I think about that Italy is a big place, and behaviors are very different in very different regions.
Speaker B:So if you go to northern Italy, that difference might be less.
Speaker B:But if you go to southern Italy, the passionate approach is surely there.
Speaker A:So northern, more the Germanic influence, the more sensible influence.
Speaker B:But at the end of the day, from Sicily to northern Italy, I think the passionate approach is true all around Italy.
Speaker A:Business is personal, then.
Speaker B:Yes, it is personal.
Speaker B:So many businesses run by friends, by close friends, by families, family business is huge.
Speaker A:Does it mean there's more falling out then there's more getting upset?
Speaker B:I used to think that you shouldn't, you know, mix friendship and business, but now I think friendships and friendships and business, they go along very well because at the end of the day, the advantages are much more than the disadvantages.
Speaker B:So I tend to work with friends getting old.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And as I get older, and I don't mean this in a nasty way, but, you know, friends come and go, you make new friends, you keep.
Speaker A:Absolutely, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, that's different.
Speaker B:You know, you think.
Speaker B:I come from a very small city in northern Italy.
Speaker B:My parents are from Sardinia, though.
Speaker B:And I thought, you know, you want to think that you keep friends your entire cycle of life, and that's not true.
Speaker B:You meet new people and sometimes, you know, different friendships for different ages as well.
Speaker A:You outgrow people.
Speaker A:It's the sad truth.
Speaker A:Or they outgrow you.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker B:Or simply, some friends, they stay for life, I think, but some others come and go and new friendships.
Speaker B:I think I met so many people in business that are friends now.
Speaker B:I don't know about you, but it's amazing.
Speaker B:And, you know, I met them in the late 30s, in the 40s, even now.
Speaker B:I make wonderful friendships in business.
Speaker A:Context is so important, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You actually can get on with people really well and be very close friends, and then sometimes that context gets removed.
Speaker A:You know, maybe you stop playing that sport or you stop having that thing in common, and then you meet them and you don't have anything to talk about.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, and then, as you say, there's the evergreen friends who might be.
Speaker A:You make each other laugh.
Speaker A:You Know or.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:Or you.
Speaker A:You appreciate each other's wisdom or.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Or you met them simply in a time that was beyond what you do.
Speaker B:It's just love.
Speaker B:It's just a feeling, you know, and it doesn't matter if you don't have anything to say.
Speaker B:They will be part of your life forever.
Speaker A:It's so central to Italian feeling and emotion, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yes, it is.
Speaker B:It's center for human beings.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Sometimes they just pretend it isn't.
Speaker A:Well, I always think of our American cousins, that they have that phrase, you know, it's not personal, it's business.
Speaker A:And I don't think that really makes.
Speaker A:I think in Britain, all business is personal again, but maybe we're quite reserved anyway.
Speaker A:We definitely hold back our emotions.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's different.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Being reserved doesn't mean that you don't feel emotions.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker B:Is just a protection.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because sometimes when it's true in business and in life, when you remove those protections, you can take some risks of being hurt and.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But for Italians, I think it's just something that we can't avoid.
Speaker B:It's just who we are, and that's something that makes us great in a way.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker B:I think you cannot be something else, you know, you cannot pretend to be similar to someone else if you're different.
Speaker B:You just need to accept it and take the advantages of it.
Speaker B:So this is the way we do business.
Speaker B:We can be very creative, we can be very flexible, we can be smart, and that's something we can work on.
Speaker A:So British people, for instance, should be more open with their emotions.
Speaker A:Should they?
Speaker A:With dealing with Italians are more, as we would say, heart on our sleeves, but, like, it's more expressive.
Speaker A:That's helpful.
Speaker C:Is it?
Speaker B:Well, I don't know, because my wife is so different than me.
Speaker B:It's that very impressive.
Speaker B:And sometimes if you are an Italian, you would like to be British, so you should be British in doing business with us.
Speaker B:That's what I think.
Speaker A:Strange that the Italian.
Speaker A:You said an interesting thing.
Speaker A:If you're Italian, you might want to be British.
Speaker A:I always feel that British want to be Italians, and then the Italians sometimes want to be British, which is very surprising to us because we think, well, you've got all this good stuff.
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker B:When I come to London, it's.
Speaker B:It's amazing.
Speaker B:It's amazing.
Speaker B:You're amazing people.
Speaker B:You did so many interesting things.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:It's nice of you to say.
Speaker A:We don't feel like that, to be honest, but that, you know, that's maybe our psyche.
Speaker A:But my friend said it to me, who's Italian, years ago, she said, you are straight.
Speaker A:She was saying how in Italy you never quite know you.
Speaker A:Where you are.
Speaker A:You know, people make promises and then they do.
Speaker B:That's so very true.
Speaker B:We might this later.
Speaker B:My.
Speaker B:We have an office in Rome.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And my partner Giovanni runs the office in Rome.
Speaker B:And he says, no.
Speaker B:One says no in Rome.
Speaker B:You go to a business meeting and you think, wow, I've done something today.
Speaker B:Then you get back and nothing happens because nobody says to you, no, it's not going to happen.
Speaker B:Whether.
Speaker B:You know, dealing with clarity sometimes is refreshing.
Speaker A:Well, we never say yes.
Speaker A:We just have lots of ways to say no.
Speaker A:We don't like saying yes, because if we say yes, we really mean yes, you know, so we have to follow through, which is good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Actually, you're right because that.
Speaker A:Her example years ago was that she'd been promised this bonus by an Italian boss, and then she said, oh, what's going on?
Speaker A:And he was like, oh.
Speaker A:You know, and she was like, that wouldn't happen here.
Speaker A:And it's true if you did.
Speaker A:I mean, it could happen, sure.
Speaker A:But if.
Speaker A:But 90% of the time, if someone said you're gonna do it, they then have to honor that feeling.
Speaker B:You know, as I said, we are.
Speaker B:We tend to be flexible.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:But then it really becomes about who you are at the very bottom of your heart.
Speaker B:Especially if you have an Italian, which is different, and who doesn't like this, is going to become more trustworthy than any other person in the world because he has something to prove, you know, so that's why I think sometimes Italian managers are fantastic because they are used to deal with flexible people.
Speaker B:And so sometimes they can become very good managers.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:Understanding how to pick up.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:They need to prove that Italians are not like that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:And so you do it even more.
Speaker A:And what's the culture in terms then with that flexibility?
Speaker A:You know, for instance, a simple example.
Speaker A:How long would it take for an invoice to get paid?
Speaker A:Is it 30 days?
Speaker A:Or is it 30 days?
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker A:That's laughable.
Speaker A:Is it?
Speaker B:No, that's.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:That's a huge difference.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think it can take up to six months.
Speaker A:What, to get paid?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And we're not talking about unpaying clients.
Speaker B:We're just talking about regular clients.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It can take very long.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker B:Well, unless we have many corporate clients, so that's a bit different.
Speaker B:But not that much.
Speaker B:It can take months.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:And that's just normal.
Speaker A:You chase, do you?
Speaker A:Should you chase heavily or is that rude or.
Speaker B:No, we don't.
Speaker B:You don't normally.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It really depends by the scale of.
Speaker A:The business you deal with.
Speaker A:On the whole, the Average payment time is 60, is six months.
Speaker A:They go.
Speaker A:And they don't need to be chased.
Speaker A:They just get around to it after six months.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I'm not talking about every client, but it's not uncommon.
Speaker B:Let's say that we have corporations, they pay in 30 days, but there are quite exceptions.
Speaker A:Is there a feeling towards the big corporations that they should be better behaved?
Speaker B:Well, I don't know how it works in England.
Speaker B:I've heard about big corporations paying in six months.
Speaker A:It's the other way around here we tend to try.
Speaker A:Little people tend to try and pay each other quickly, you know, but once they're big, they use their power to push it down.
Speaker A:It should be illegal in my view.
Speaker B:It's a huge corporation, so I cannot say that.
Speaker B:But I remember that they were exiting the major acquisitions and they were basically delaying the payments in order not to borrow monies for the.
Speaker B:From the bank.
Speaker A:That's what they do here.
Speaker A:The big companies, they could.
Speaker A:They can say, we're gonna.
Speaker A:We'll push all the payment terms.
Speaker B:In Italy, they paid lawyers in six months, even more.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:And if you were doing a zoom or people be on time for these things again, does it depend in northern, southern Italy, it's like you with a client, you're meeting with a client, they're not turning up 20 minutes late all the time, are they?
Speaker B:Or how do you go the later it is?
Speaker B:For example, in Italy, it's, you know, time meeting is a suggestion and.
Speaker B:But I don't want to talk about stereotypes, you know, because it's funny.
Speaker B:Otherwise we talk about, you know, spaghetti and mandolin.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But at the, at the very end.
Speaker A:Time is a suggestion.
Speaker A:Is hilarious to a British person.
Speaker B:But no, in normal business we are quite punctual.
Speaker B:I think you have to be probably.
Speaker A:As a professional, don't you?
Speaker A:I mean, you can't be like, oh, I decided to come later.
Speaker B:Yes, but it's not like for the Brits.
Speaker C:Yeah, okay.
Speaker B:But if you go to Milan, it's not that different than London.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it really depends about.
Speaker B:On the context.
Speaker B:But I remember.
Speaker B:But it's quite interesting, you know, because you think you're talking about stereotypes, but they are not.
Speaker B:I used to live in London with people from all around Europe because I won a Scholarship for lawyers, long time ago.
Speaker B:And we had this judge from Norway, okay.
Speaker B:And we used to organize parties with Portuguese and Spanish and we had a lot of fun.
Speaker B:And we were astonished because the guy from Norway, he used to take his own beers to the party.
Speaker B:And he told us it was quite normal in Norway.
Speaker B:We were like, you know, for us sharing is, you know, fundamental and parties.
Speaker B:So he used to take his own beers.
Speaker A:We would do that in Britain.
Speaker A:Maybe we would take some and you can have a couple.
Speaker A:But I'm gonna drink.
Speaker C:No, no.
Speaker B:But he was drinking his own beers by himself and he didn't pay for the party.
Speaker A:Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker A:Well, also when I lived my Italian friend, the Italians would ring up all day worrying about food.
Speaker A:What fruity being I do the cannellone.
Speaker A:Oh, I do know.
Speaker A:And they talk.
Speaker A:Whereas the British people ringing up and they would talk about alcohol.
Speaker A:They just talk about like how much booze, like if we got enough booze.
Speaker A:No one ever mentioned food.
Speaker A:And then, and then all the British people would eat all the food and the Italians would drink all the booze.
Speaker B:You know, something is, it might be worth underline is that food is, is an important part of the business in Italy.
Speaker B:Most of the big decisions are taken at lunches and dinners.
Speaker B:Yes, drink alcohol.
Speaker A:No, no, no, you're there for the food.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's much more for the food.
Speaker B:Whether a dinner.
Speaker B:Yeah, we do that.
Speaker C:Nice.
Speaker B:So if you go to a business dinner, then you're allowed to drink.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:But you, you much more sensible with your drinking.
Speaker A:You know, you'll have a glass or two glasses.
Speaker A:You know, I've hung around with the beach in Puglia, you know, and I remember like people will have one beer and then an hour later they'll have one more bottle of beer.
Speaker A:And I'd sit there with British people and we'd be like, we're just like, beer, beer, beer, beer, beer.
Speaker A:You know, there's not this sort of demand to get wasted that we sometimes.
Speaker B:I think that's because you are so reserved, compressed that that's the result.
Speaker B:I remember I was impressed.
Speaker B:I post graduated in Sheffield and sociality is so different.
Speaker B:I remember this very old professor, he used to get wasted at the pub.
Speaker B:And one night, it was one of the first nights I was there, it was flat on the pubs floor and nobody cared about it.
Speaker B:It was quite normal.
Speaker B:And I was like, is he a professor?
Speaker B:And they were like, yeah, yeah he is.
Speaker B:And I was like, okay, that's different, that's different.
Speaker A:Well, that leads me nicely into My next question, hierarchically, is it flat?
Speaker B:It's a very hierarchical.
Speaker C:Oh, is it?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Family businesses.
Speaker B:You can imagine the father, dad.
Speaker B:But even law firms, hierarchies in important.
Speaker A:Does information struggle to flow up?
Speaker B:Yes, they do.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:They do.
Speaker A:So it's important to work out a bit like who where you.
Speaker A:Where are you in the hierarchy?
Speaker A:Are you talking to big boss or are you talking to.
Speaker B:Yes, that's, that's very present in Italian business.
Speaker C:Right, yeah.
Speaker B:Things are changing very fast, you know, because now it's so fancy to be flat.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But it's still resisting, especially family businesses.
Speaker B:They are very hierarchical, I think.
Speaker A:And family business must take up a huge.
Speaker A:I mean, you mentioned before, there must be a huge percentage of business.
Speaker B:Yeah, they are a huge percent of business, but they're also big corporations.
Speaker B:But the mid market runs the business in any.
Speaker B:Any way that we have.
Speaker B:So very few big corporations.
Speaker B:The heart of the Italian businesses is a mid market.
Speaker C:Oh, the mid market, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:See, well, we share that.
Speaker B:Britain.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:We actually don't have many really big businesses.
Speaker A:It's all like in the States.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Oh, Germany.
Speaker A:Or France.
Speaker B:Or Germany, you know, they have.
Speaker B:Or even France, even France.
Speaker A:They have huge businesses, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We are really a nation of shopkeepers, as they say, you know, mid market, small, medium, you know.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And they are the best clients, if I can say, sometimes, because you can make an impact as a professional.
Speaker B:I mean.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you work with.
Speaker A:Yeah, you can make a difference, you can have fun.
Speaker A:I find with the big corporates, what happens is I go to meeting at one, you know, and I tell them the things they need to do and they're like, oh, great, great, great.
Speaker A:And you go back a year later or six months later, you're dealing with different people, they can't remember, you tell them all.
Speaker A:And one of the things was like, guys, you're doing something sort of illegal over here, you need to fix it.
Speaker A:You've got your tax wrong.
Speaker C:Oh, right, right.
Speaker A:When he.
Speaker A:And then after two years of that, I end up like going, oh, my God.
Speaker A:And so I have to write an email, putting in writing that I have told you all and I keep telling you all you need to do certain things, but no one wants to do it, you know, it's just.
Speaker A:It's like a merry go round.
Speaker A:There's no memory.
Speaker A:You know, I remember doing this thing for a client where we saved them loads of money.
Speaker A:It was a massive deal.
Speaker A:And then like four or five years later, meeting them and saying, oh, have you heard about this very clever thing we've done?
Speaker A:Oh, it's very clever.
Speaker A:And we've saved a fortune.
Speaker A:And I'm like, yeah, that's.
Speaker A:That was.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker A:That's my thing that I told.
Speaker A:Oh, were you involved?
Speaker A:It was like, like.
Speaker A:And I remember just thinking to me, I'll just be quiet because I wanted.
Speaker A:I wanted to be really upset.
Speaker B:You know, it's like corporations are very.
Speaker B:Are very strange animal.
Speaker B:I watch a very interesting documentary about a huge corporation and they made this experiment.
Speaker B:They tried to understand how decisions are taken in a big corporation and what' the human type they can be associated with.
Speaker B:And it becomes at the very end of the documentary, that corporation is a psychopath.
Speaker B:Because when they are very big, there is no link between the decision and the effects of the decision.
Speaker A:Like a psychopath.
Speaker A:Like this sort of this lack of empathy again.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:They stop caring.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So I think the whole ESG thing is.
Speaker B:Is interesting for these reasons because it gives corporations the possibility to interrogate themselves about the impact of their decisions into the real world and not just in the business.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's almost.
Speaker A:It's a necessity to challenge them on that level.
Speaker A:Is it?
Speaker A:You know, it is.
Speaker B:Because they're so powerful today.
Speaker B:They're like states.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:We need to do something, you know, to be sure that things and effects are analyzed properly.
Speaker A:Is the culture quite collaborative or quite individualistic?
Speaker B:I don't think there are people more individualists than Italians.
Speaker C:Oh.
Speaker B:In lawyers is a huge problem.
Speaker B:And a really huge problem.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We are really individualists.
Speaker B:There are some things.
Speaker B:Sometimes the magic happens and we can do things much better than any other person in the world, but most of the times we are individualists.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:How interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's almost such an important part of being Italian to be yourself, isn't it?
Speaker A:You know, to express yourself.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I don't think it's something we think about because otherwise, think this.
Speaker B:The Italian is one of the few places in the world where the perception of Italy is worse for Italians than for foreigners.
Speaker B:So foreigners think much better things about Italy than Italians.
Speaker A:Maybe that's something we share.
Speaker A:Again, because I think British people really don't think well of ourselves.
Speaker A:And I bump into people occasionally who think, oh, well, there's not many countries, but I learned recently Russia's got loads of respect for Britain.
Speaker A:I'm like, really?
Speaker B:But think about France.
Speaker B:Yes, they do something and they.
Speaker B:They feel so proud about it and they.
Speaker B:They just sell it all around the world, you know, and.
Speaker B:And that's marketing.
Speaker A:In a way, do Italians what you feel failure?
Speaker A:Why do you feel bad?
Speaker A:I mean, you've.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker B:First of all, you have to think that we are a very young state.
Speaker A:Yes, true.
Speaker B:Because we were divided in so many.
Speaker A:You're like a hundred years old or something.
Speaker B:And so the results of that division is that Italy is a young state again.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think that's the historical reason.
Speaker B:And it's like Europe.
Speaker B:Think about Europe.
Speaker B:It's the same.
Speaker B:You know, I think at the time of Mazzini, you know, proudest of Europe was more present than today.
Speaker A:At the time of who?
Speaker A:Mazzini?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Mazzini was an Italian revolutionary that emigrated to London because he was.
Speaker B:He didn't want to be killed in Italy.
Speaker B:And basically it was the beginning of Italy.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:Oh, really?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so he came to London and he organized a lot of things in favor of the united Italy, but also in favor of the united Europe.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it's very hard to bring people together.
Speaker B:Being in business on.
Speaker B:In real life, it's very hard to keep people together.
Speaker A:That's interesting that just being a young nation means that by its very nature it's more tribal and almost more individualistic.
Speaker A:There's lots of different areas, people to kind of more worry or, you know, their identity is less and they want to count.
Speaker B:Probably that's the reason.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:They want to be seen.
Speaker A:What do you think about societal expectation from employees in terms of.
Speaker A:Do employees expect a lot now?
Speaker B:Yes, they do.
Speaker A:Holiday maternity leave.
Speaker B:They do.
Speaker B:Because we have one of the legislations more in favor of employees in the world.
Speaker A:I think really, very proud.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Pro employee.
Speaker B:I think France is a bit better than us, but we're very, very close.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Long holidays, a huge attention of work life balance.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:When you employ someone in Italy, how long until they have employment rights and you can't fire them as you wish?
Speaker B:Oh, if it really depends on the size of the company.
Speaker C:Oh, right.
Speaker B:So it's very easy to fire.
Speaker B:If you have less than 16 employees, 1 6.
Speaker B:Then 15 employees, 115 after 15.
Speaker B:It's very complicated.
Speaker C:Oh, right.
Speaker A:The moment you're more than 15 people is in a business and I hire someone day one and then day two.
Speaker B:You can have a trial period.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:How long is that?
Speaker B:It really depends on the type of business.
Speaker B:We have collective contracts.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:But it can be.
Speaker B:I don't think it can.
Speaker B:I'm not an employment lawyer, but in my experience of employer, I don't think it can be more than Six months.
Speaker B:Then you can have temporary contracts.
Speaker B:You can have other things.
Speaker B:But if you employ a person in a company that's more than 15 employees, it's going to be a real problem to fire them.
Speaker B:And it's going to cost you a huge amount of money.
Speaker B:And it's also complicated.
Speaker B:You can't even settle.
Speaker B:You have to go to a conciliator.
Speaker B:Can you say something like that?
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:A sort of mediator.
Speaker B:A mediator?
Speaker B:An employment mediator.
Speaker B:And sign in front of him.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:So it's not.
Speaker B:It's even procedural.
Speaker B:It's not easy going.
Speaker B:But that's a problem for Italian business.
Speaker B:As you might remember, automotive sector tended to transfer a lot of their employees from Italy to Poland.
Speaker C:Did they?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:For example.
Speaker B:Or in Eastern Europe because they.
Speaker B:They.
Speaker B:The labor cost in Italy is huge.
Speaker A:That means businesses struggle to grow in a way.
Speaker B:I think that's one of the reasons why we don't have big, big companies.
Speaker A:Simple as.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Especially if you.
Speaker B:If you are in an industrial sector where the employees costs tend to be very high and if it costs you double than any other country in it in Europe, it's a problem.
Speaker B:It's a huge problem.
Speaker A:That's interesting.
Speaker A:What are the language or cultural cues that people from outside Italy might miss or confuse most often, do you think?
Speaker A:What are sort of standard misunderstandings?
Speaker B:Maybe if we kiss a Chinese to say hi.
Speaker A:Oh, when you kiss.
Speaker A:Kiss you.
Speaker A:You like to kiss?
Speaker C:Yeah, I know.
Speaker A:I was with someone recently and we were hanging out and they kept.
Speaker A:It was a man.
Speaker A:And they kept sort of coming at me and I was kind of going like what?
Speaker A:And I was suddenly like, oh.
Speaker A:They keep trying to kiss me on the cheek.
Speaker A:And they keep realizing too, I'm British and I'm like, whoa, don't kiss me.
Speaker A:And I'm so.
Speaker A:And I should get used to it.
Speaker A:And they sort of.
Speaker A:They were adjusting in England.
Speaker A:But you would kiss on the cheek, do you?
Speaker B:Of invading other people's space?
Speaker B:I think that's another thing you like.
Speaker A:To do that isn't that.
Speaker B:No, it's not that we like.
Speaker B:But that's something that can happen in Italy.
Speaker B:Again, it really depends where and when, but I'm not too surprised if that happens.
Speaker A:So if I meet someone for the first time in Italy, they know I'm British, so they probably just shake my hand.
Speaker A:But would you kiss on the cheek the first time you meet someone?
Speaker B:No, I don't think I would kiss a man in the cheek.
Speaker B:But if there is a.
Speaker B:A sympathy or a confidence and sometimes what's the confidence?
Speaker B:No, some.
Speaker B:If you, if you understand that that person can be.
Speaker B:Become close.
Speaker A:No, I think we get to a point in our friendships in Britain that we hug.
Speaker B:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:Men hug here.
Speaker A:And in a lot of countries, even that is very peculiar.
Speaker A:You know, it's, you know, it's.
Speaker A:It's always tricky hugging a Jamaican.
Speaker A:That's always a funny, funny experience.
Speaker A:They go like.
Speaker A:They don't know what to do.
Speaker A:They go all like wooden and you're like.
Speaker A:And it's just really aw.
Speaker A:Awkward moment in your life.
Speaker A:You know, they don't, they don't do touching, but.
Speaker A:Okay, so a client, you know really well when you see him.
Speaker A:You what?
Speaker A:One kiss on one cheek?
Speaker B:No, if.
Speaker B:If I, if I, I hug with my friends.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And sometimes I hug and I.
Speaker B:And I kiss.
Speaker A:So it's more like when you're really close, you add a kiss as a kind of like, to be honest, you know, even my closest friends, sometimes, you know, I'll kiss them on the cheek, you know.
Speaker A:But I mean, I'm a bit weird, but.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's.
Speaker A:It's probably a little bit too much.
Speaker A:That's funny.
Speaker B:But I have one of my best friends, he married an Italian girl and he's from Northern Ireland.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:And we are.
Speaker B:But they're Irish.
Speaker B:They're much.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:We.
Speaker B:Much more like us.
Speaker A:We hug with my friends.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, I'm always saying to D. This is very common London thing where you go, you do the hands and you put your shoulder in.
Speaker A:But because I went to posh school and stuff, I'm not very good at it.
Speaker A:So I panic every time that happens.
Speaker A:So it's always a bit awkward and I just can't.
Speaker A:I just need to relax.
Speaker A:I just need to be cool and do it.
Speaker A:But I'm like, every time I'm doing it, I'm like, I don't know how to do this.
Speaker A:Can we just hug?
Speaker A:It's very cool.
Speaker A:It's very street.
Speaker A:You know, all the men, they're all like, they all do this slap and then they lean in and do this sort of shoulder.
Speaker A:It's very like.
Speaker A:Anyway, it's not.
Speaker A:I can't quite do it very well.
Speaker A:What about small talk?
Speaker A:So Italians are very emotional.
Speaker A:It's, you know, important to have quite a lot of small talking business, you know.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I can tell you what you don't talk about.
Speaker B:You don't talk about money in Italy, how much you make.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:Which is quite normal in the States, for example.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's really, really rude here too.
Speaker B:Very rude.
Speaker B:We tend to talk about food and.
Speaker A:What, where you ate, what you ate recently, what you're having for dinner.
Speaker B:Yes, I think that's the small talk.
Speaker B:If you're not a place, if you don't know a place, if you ever been there.
Speaker A:Yeah, okay, that's nice.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And religion.
Speaker B:No, no, no, that's private.
Speaker A:You know, America may be the odd one out because they said, Lewis said in Spain, don't talk about money.
Speaker A:Britain, don't talk about money.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's not polite.
Speaker A:So if I want to do a job proposal, I want to estimate a fee.
Speaker A:That's all by email, is it?
Speaker A:Sort of privately, you know, and would you negotiate?
Speaker A:So, you know, I meet, I, you know, I'm estimating for a job in whatever industry, I give them a proposal.
Speaker B:I, I make a proposal during the interview.
Speaker A:Okay, yes.
Speaker B:Or 100 of the time.
Speaker B:And then that will be followed by an email and the contract and whatever.
Speaker B:But we made the proposal there.
Speaker A:And then if I say, hey, Marco, I want a better price, is that rude or is that okay, let me think about it.
Speaker B:No, I don't think it's rude.
Speaker B:I don't think it's rude.
Speaker B:No.
Speaker A:But do you spend much time negotiating the price?
Speaker B:I don't.
Speaker B:Most of the times I have an offer in mind and that's it.
Speaker B:But not because I don't want to negotiate.
Speaker B:It's just because, you know, you have equilibrium, balance in the firm.
Speaker B:And so if you think that person is there and then most of the times.
Speaker B:But that's us, it has nothing to do with Italians.
Speaker B:I think it's much better to have that person in at the price that you think is fit and then you can, you know, see how the performance is and then make the adjustments.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, I prefer that way.
Speaker A:Instead of start somewhere and then say.
Speaker B:Next time, make the adjustments in good.
Speaker A:Faith and then wait six months to get paid.
Speaker A:Yeah, there should be an adjustment for that.
Speaker B:Yeah, but the problem is only for the first six months, isn't it?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But don't get me wrong, not all the clients pay in six months.
Speaker B:What I was trying to say is that it's not totally unusual.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker B:So let's say 20% of the clients can do that.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:But 90 days is quite normal, so it's, it's definitely longer.
Speaker A:And now a quick word from our sponsor business without bullshit is brought to you by Ori Clark.
Speaker A: ancial and legal advice since: Speaker A:You can find us@ureclark.com Orey is spelled O U R Y.
Speaker A:Before we press on, just a quick reminder to come say hi on whatever social platform you like.
Speaker A:We're pretty much on all of them.
Speaker A:Just search for WB London.
Speaker A:Let's do some sort of fun things like best thing about doing business with Italians.
Speaker A:What's the best thing again?
Speaker B:Food.
Speaker A:Food.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's so important that can bring you.
Speaker B:In very nice places and eat very decent food anywhere around Italy.
Speaker A:And how.
Speaker A:How early in the relationship you might.
Speaker A:First meeting, you might have.
Speaker B:Yes, I normally meet new people at lunch.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:And you take them to, you know, I guess in Italy, all the food's Italian.
Speaker A:I mean.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Well, if I have people coming from abroad, I try to make them eat the regional cuisine.
Speaker B:So not even just the classic Italian, but the plates that are the dishes that are.
Speaker A:And you're from.
Speaker B:I'm based in Turin and I work in Milan two or three times a week, but Turin is much better for food.
Speaker A:What's the dish of Turin?
Speaker A:What's his most famous dish?
Speaker B:Agnolotti.
Speaker A:Agnolotti.
Speaker B:What is that kind of ravioli?
Speaker C:Oh, nice.
Speaker B:And a lot of meat.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:I'm a vegetarian, though, so I need to take people in, in the places that I know and that I remember that are fine for them.
Speaker B:But, yeah, other things.
Speaker B:Truffles in Piemonte, especially risotto.
Speaker C:Risotto.
Speaker A:What's Milan famous for?
Speaker A:Meat.
Speaker A:Isn't it?
Speaker C:Again?
Speaker B:Again, meat.
Speaker B:Yeah, risotto again.
Speaker B:But it's not that different.
Speaker B:If you go to Puglia, for example, that's very different.
Speaker B:A lot.
Speaker B:Vegetables.
Speaker B:Any region, you eat very different food.
Speaker B:Very, very different food.
Speaker B:You can come to Italy, make a trip for a year and eat different food every day.
Speaker A:Biggest hurdle to overcome doing business in Italy.
Speaker B:Stereotypes, again.
Speaker A:Stereotypes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Don't.
Speaker A:Don't have them or.
Speaker A:What do you mean?
Speaker B:I mean, sometimes people are.
Speaker B:People think they don't completely trust Italians.
Speaker B:That's one problem.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker B:You think something different.
Speaker B:You just think that they think they're smart and then you.
Speaker B:They think they want to cheat you.
Speaker B:Things like that.
Speaker A:Yeah, Assumptions.
Speaker A:They just make assumptions.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:But that.
Speaker B:That's for, you know, every time you meet someone with a different culture, you do tend to think that, you know the behaviors, and most of the times you're wrong.
Speaker B:So that's the most important thing.
Speaker B:Try to judge the person you know beyond nationality.
Speaker A:How is it.
Speaker A:How is it to trade with Italy, to sell to Italy?
Speaker B:It's very easy.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:We're very easy going.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think so, yeah.
Speaker A:And how difficult is it to set up a bank account?
Speaker B:Oh, it's very easy.
Speaker B:Apart from anti money laundering regulation compliance, qic, because that's the same all around Europe.
Speaker B:But in general it's very easy.
Speaker B:You can open a bank account quite easily.
Speaker A:For Italian company.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:For a foreign company it really comes to compliance issues.
Speaker B:People from some states, it's a bit more difficult.
Speaker B:Sometimes it can take months.
Speaker B:People from Europe is very easy.
Speaker B:It really depends on that.
Speaker B:It used to be very easy, but I remember for example, when I came to UK and it was you and it took me a long time to open a bank.
Speaker C:Oh yeah.
Speaker A:It's tough here because it's.
Speaker A:Because it's so easy to form a company.
Speaker A:It's really hard to open a bank account.
Speaker A:Is it hard to open a company in Italy?
Speaker B:One day you can open a company in Italy, change very much.
Speaker A:Wow, when did that change?
Speaker B:Over time, I think.
Speaker B:And then you might take a few days for to be registered in the company registry.
Speaker B:But it, it's really quick now.
Speaker A:Oh, that's fantastic.
Speaker A:So you can form a company in a day and you can get a bank account.
Speaker B:You still need the notary, so you need to.
Speaker B:With the notary.
Speaker B:But it's very easy.
Speaker C:Oh, that's great.
Speaker B:And most of the times you open the bank account and you open the company.
Speaker B:But a company cannot be active until you have the bank account.
Speaker B:So it takes much longer to open the bank account than the company itself.
Speaker A:And how long does it take to open the bank account roughly?
Speaker B:It really depends on the, on the nationality.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:For foreign.
Speaker A:Foreign owned Italian company, take a while.
Speaker B:Foreign Italian company, it can take a while.
Speaker B:It took me a few months from a non European nationality.
Speaker A:Do you think it matters in Italy?
Speaker A:You know, if you are expanding into Italy and setting up in Italy, do you think it's important to be in a capital city or in, you know, you should be in Milan.
Speaker B:No, it's not like uk.
Speaker B:It's not like uk where London is fundamental.
Speaker B:Rome is more, you know, political and administrative capital.
Speaker B:But if, for example, if you want to be close to the financial world, you need to go to Milan.
Speaker B:But it's not just Rome and Milan.
Speaker B:There are so many cities which are active.
Speaker B:Some companies from Germany, nostril, they want to open a company near the border.
Speaker B:So they open many companies in Benito or very close to the borders in.
Speaker B:So it really depends.
Speaker B:But it's not like, again, it's not like London that dominates.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So But Milan is becoming important.
Speaker A:But you would probably start in northern Italy.
Speaker A:Probably.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because that's where the business kind of is.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:But you have to think about Lombardy and is probably the richest region in Europe, even richer than some regions in Germany.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker A:Which of the towns in Lombardy is that?
Speaker A:Bologna.
Speaker A:No, what's Lombardy?
Speaker B:Nobody is Milan.
Speaker A:Ah, okay.
Speaker A:That's the region of Milan.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:And that's where there's this tax relief.
Speaker A:Lots of people go to Italy for that.
Speaker A:You pay 10 on the first million and then nothing after.
Speaker B:Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:So you've got lots of celebrities or wealthy people knocking around.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Milan is becoming interesting for foreigners.
Speaker B:They like Italy and it's.
Speaker B:It's a good, very good bridge for nice places.
Speaker B:And the cities become.
Speaker B:It's not a big city, it's not London because it's 2 million people.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And yeah, yeah, we are attracting many, many networked individuals for that.
Speaker B:And we will see.
Speaker B:I was reading an article today which was very interesting.
Speaker B:It made me think that Milan is becoming like London and New York, a place where only rich people can be happy.
Speaker B:Which is something we should think about because, yeah, it used to be easy to live in Milan and it's becoming more and more difficult for people not making enough money.
Speaker A:It's a bit like that in London.
Speaker A:Although at the moment, I mean, there's so many wealthy people leaving London.
Speaker A:It'll adjust a bit.
Speaker A:I mean, property prices are coming down a bit.
Speaker A:They can't sell these really expensive homes at the moment.
Speaker A:You know, the stuff that's sort of 2 million plus the prices are dropping, you know, because they.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker A:What was happening before is so many super rich would turn up and they'd all want to live in central London.
Speaker A:They'd buy up a place in Mayfair for 20 million.
Speaker A:That person would go and move out of London a little bit.
Speaker A:They'd move a couple of boroughs out, you know, a little bit further out and buy a big house.
Speaker A:And that was sort of creating this sort of constant London prices just go up and up and up because you're competing internationally.
Speaker A:It's still true, but there's a huge amount of millionaires and people who've left because of changes to the tax rules and stuff.
Speaker A:You know, we're doing the opposite of what Italy does, really.
Speaker A:We're making it very unattractive to come as a foreigner.
Speaker A:You know, we're making it.
Speaker A:You know, there aren't.
Speaker A:If you're a wealthy person coming here, we're going to hit you with inheritance tax.
Speaker A:We're going to hit you with this, that and the other.
Speaker A:And there's a lot of political will behind that.
Speaker A:Although I just saw in the newspaper this morning, even the Labor Party is now wanting to make an exemption because so many wealthy people have left more than any other country in the world have left 16,000, they estimate in the last year, millionaires.
Speaker A:And I'm helping some of them do it.
Speaker A:And it's, you know, it's not complicated.
Speaker A:It's, you know, people come from foreign countries, they're globally mobile, they're wealthy globally.
Speaker A:I think it's the people just forget how global taxes, you know, and that people, so many people are not just born and bred from London.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:They're, they're, they're foreigners or they're originally from Italy or they're American or whatever.
Speaker A:And if you start saying you're going to hit them with a lot of tax, they're like, oh, well, I've had a nice time here, I'm off.
Speaker A:You know, it's not complicated for them, you know.
Speaker B:No, it's, it's not.
Speaker A:I'll go to Italy for a bit, you know, and if they change the rules there, maybe I'll go back to America or maybe I'll move to wherever, you know, I'll go to Portugal for a bit, you know, they can go wherever they wish it.
Speaker A:But anyway, it's misunderstood, sadly.
Speaker B:But it's, it's a problem then.
Speaker A:It is a big problem here at the moment.
Speaker A:They estimate it's crazy numbers like 20 billion in tax revenue's been lost just by being.
Speaker A:And they've got, and they were hoping to get more money running because the, the headline is let's tax those rich people.
Speaker A:It's their fault.
Speaker A:And they're, and lots of people are just like, well, I'm off, you know, I'll see you around.
Speaker B:Yeah, I knew about the fact, but I didn't knew about the, the amount.
Speaker A:More millionaires have left the UK than, than India or China.
Speaker A:Last year we were second after China.
Speaker A:This year we're top of the league of millionaires leaving.
Speaker A:So it's a big deal.
Speaker B:But you had so many.
Speaker A:We, we had loads.
Speaker A:But the funny thing is is people think that we're being too nice to them.
Speaker A:And then you say, well, in Italy, first of all, it's Italy with better weather and better food and, you know, all these great things about it, a really attractive 10% tax rate on the first million and then that's it.
Speaker A:But they come and they spend their money.
Speaker A:So anyway, it's a bit of a.
Speaker B:I think it became 200,000.
Speaker A:200,000.
Speaker A:It's 200,000 now, I think so.
Speaker B:You know, I'm not a tax lawyer.
Speaker B:No, but it's even better because some people were scared that things could change, and so making a move, the government underlined that because all those that did it before, they were not touched by the new rules.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:So they stay on it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it was like, okay, you can come.
Speaker B:It's a friendly environment.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:We're not gonna change the rules all of a sudden.
Speaker B:Yeah, we will see.
Speaker B:We need to attract foreigners.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We really need it.
Speaker B:We need to invest in tourism.
Speaker C:Really?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:You have the biggest tourism industry in the world.
Speaker A:You have more Americans than anyone else in the world.
Speaker A:You have more change.
Speaker B:Drastically.
Speaker B:During the COVID After the COVID people wanted to travel again.
Speaker B:But I think we can do much, much more.
Speaker B:I think French cousins are much better than us.
Speaker A:But people go to Italy, like.
Speaker B:Yes, yes.
Speaker B:But the infrastructure is there.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker B:We can do much more.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, it's always, you know, they're so hospitable.
Speaker A:I mean, I don't know if it's.
Speaker A:It always feels very genuine, Italy, the.
Speaker A:The hospitality, culture.
Speaker B:Yeah, but that's true.
Speaker B:That's not fake.
Speaker B:It's really what we are.
Speaker B:We.
Speaker B:We really like, you know, meeting new people, having friends.
Speaker B:We really like that, you know, all around Italy, you know, meeting, you know, again at dinner, food.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:I'm not expecting you to be an expert on this, but is it hard to get a visa if I wanted to come and set up a business in Italy?
Speaker A:Are things like that difficult?
Speaker C:You know?
Speaker B:Not really.
Speaker B:Not really.
Speaker A:Not too hard.
Speaker B:No, not too.
Speaker B:Not too.
Speaker A:If it's a business involved.
Speaker B:Yes, yes, very easy to set up a company.
Speaker B:And then if you have.
Speaker B:It's not like any other, you know, states where it's so difficult.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:I don't think it's more difficult than France or any other place in Europe, is it?
Speaker A:If I wanted to buy property, commercial property.
Speaker B:Oh, that's very easy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:What's difficult?
Speaker B:If you want to come and reside in Italy, then you need a visa, a working visa.
Speaker B:It's a bit different.
Speaker B:But if you just want to buy.
Speaker A:A property, that's easy.
Speaker B:But even if you want to set up a company, you don't need to decide in Italy.
Speaker A:You need a Italian director.
Speaker B:No, you don't.
Speaker A:You don't need an Italian director.
Speaker A:It can all be foreign.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's Amazing.
Speaker A:Yeah, I would.
Speaker A:You know, the opinion of Italy of sort of, you know, the British are good at doing this, but it's generally like, oh, God.
Speaker A:Doing business in Italy, it's a nightmare.
Speaker B:No, again, as I said, you know, sometimes you have mental barriers and you think even when you watch an American movie, they, they paint us like it was 50 years ago.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Super bureaucratic.
Speaker B:20, 25.
Speaker B:So in Italy, I've got my phone with me, you know, and if you.
Speaker B:Okay, you don't have an ID card, that's fine.
Speaker B:But if you have an ID card in Italy now, you don't need to have the paper, you have a paperless id.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:Even the driving license.
Speaker B:So if, if I have to, to, you know, drive or go to her hotel, they have to accept my driving license in my.
Speaker A:In your, in your phone.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You have a QR code just to be sure that it's not fake.
Speaker B:So it's from the government.
Speaker C:That's good, that's clever.
Speaker B:So it used to be, you know, pizza, mandolin, now it's something else.
Speaker A:Well, you've been brilliant, Marco.
Speaker A:I mean, are there any other things that you, you feel for someone looking at coming to do business in Italy, set up in Italy?
Speaker A:I mean, first of all, I think you've, you've blown AP parts and a lot of assumptions we would all make.
Speaker A:It would take largest to form a company.
Speaker A:It will be a bureaucratic nightmare.
Speaker A:That just doesn't sound like that's true.
Speaker B:Even claims are becoming quicker.
Speaker A:Even claims, even legal claims.
Speaker B:Yeah, they're becoming quicker.
Speaker B:But I think the most amazing thing you can find in Italy are people.
Speaker B:I think you can find amazing people.
Speaker B:There are places in Italy.
Speaker B:Polytechnic of Milan, Polytechnic of Turin.
Speaker B:Universities, incubators.
Speaker A:Very creative.
Speaker A:As you said at the start, there's a creative mindset for the Italian.
Speaker B:And I think with this AI thing, we will have an advantage because creativity will become more important.
Speaker A:Very good point.
Speaker B:And I think you agree.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, I think that's so, yeah.
Speaker A:Expertise, creativity, it's also the imperfections.
Speaker A:The funny thing is, is that I think imperfection will become more and more valued, and that's almost art.
Speaker A:That's almost, you know, it's.
Speaker A:What's the Len Cohen line?
Speaker A:Everything has a crack in it.
Speaker A:That's how the light gets in.
Speaker A:There's such beauty in imperfection, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, but that's.
Speaker B:That's very interesting that you say so, because I was reading today and I had no idea.
Speaker B:Quantum computers, they are quite faster, much, much faster than the Old computers.
Speaker B:But they make mistakes.
Speaker A:Oh, yes.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And the big problem is that they make mistakes because they're not binaries.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:And so they are quicker, but they make mistakes.
Speaker B:And that's scary in a way.
Speaker B:So we are creating machines that make mistakes.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker A:I mean, AI makes lots of mistakes, doesn't it?
Speaker A:But in a very sort of specific way.
Speaker A:It just sort of makes stuff up, you know, or that that's large language model AI.
Speaker B:Are British professionals afraid of AI?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think without a doubt, certain industries are.
Speaker A:You know, I think everyone's sort of putting a brave face on it.
Speaker A:But you're quite right to say underneath it, I think I would be.
Speaker A:If we weren't quite a diverse firm and we were just, we were a.
Speaker A:A large legal firm doing certain things, I would be worried about a bunch of my workforce.
Speaker B:But the thing is, I'm not scary.
Speaker B:I, I think humanity is going for the better.
Speaker B:Violence was so common during the Roman Empire.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You know, that was so close to us.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:We still have problems not saying.
Speaker B:Especially these days, we cannot say that we don't have problems.
Speaker B:But I think humanity went for the better and making mistakes, correcting mistakes, making mistakes again.
Speaker B:But.
Speaker B:So I think the old technology thing is for the better.
Speaker A:Well, think about AI.
Speaker A:A, it can speak every language, but B, it can bridge those cultural gaps.
Speaker A:So I take an email now, you know, particularly for my email for my Indian client friends.
Speaker A:You know, they, they can be very hierarchical and always negotiating on price, which from a British perspective can just be exhausting.
Speaker A:But I will just write an annoy.
Speaker A:The annoyed email I want to write, I give it to AI and I say, make that work in India.
Speaker A:And it writes this incredibly polite email.
Speaker A:And you know, I would have never phrased it all like that.
Speaker A:I would have.
Speaker A:They've pushed me to a point sometimes that my cult problem is that I'm now at a point, as a British person, I'm going to say how it is and I'm going to say, enough of this.
Speaker A:Do this.
Speaker A:Or I'm, you know, but it doesn't.
Speaker A:It, it's so respectful and I get a great reply.
Speaker A:I send what it says and they're like, and what ha.
Speaker A:What I want to happen happens, which is I want them to do X.
Speaker A:And, and, and that's so nice because.
Speaker B:They, It's a very good point.
Speaker A:And they write back and they say, absolutely, Andrew, we'll think about this.
Speaker A:And I'm like, I don't use it.
Speaker B:That much much, but I Ended up using it especially for the things I do not want to do.
Speaker A:Yes, great way of putting it.
Speaker A:Yeah, the difficult things.
Speaker B:Yeah, but not difficult, because I can't do it, because I'm not able to do it, but just because I don't like it.
Speaker A:You've been brilliant, Marco.
Speaker A:So just a little fun at the end.
Speaker A:You need a paddle.
Speaker A:It says business on one side.
Speaker A:It says on the side other.
Speaker A:I'm going to name some terms and you need to tell me whether you think it is business or bullshit.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:And we can discuss.
Speaker B:Are you clear?
Speaker A:Hold the paddle up and you say business or bullshit.
Speaker A:You're on radio and tv.
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker A:Okay, so here we go.
Speaker A:First one, I don't know how much this is a thing in Italy.
Speaker A:Personal pronouns, does that mean anything to you?
Speaker A:When people want to be called they or she or.
Speaker A:Yeah, great.
Speaker B:Sorry.
Speaker A:I'm with you.
Speaker C:I'm with you.
Speaker B:Political correctness.
Speaker A:This is a thing in Italy, so I don't know what you'd say in Italian.
Speaker A:How do you say he or she?
Speaker A:They.
Speaker B:Lou.
Speaker A:And so will people put them in brackets after their name that I.
Speaker B:No, we don't do that.
Speaker A:You won't do it?
Speaker B:No, we don't do that.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:Up to now.
Speaker A:Up to now, things are changing very.
Speaker B:Fast, but we don't do that.
Speaker A:Do you know personality type tests?
Speaker A:So there's Miles Briggs, there's various tests you can do to understand.
Speaker A:Are you a.
Speaker A:You're an expressive person.
Speaker A:You a sort of analytical type person.
Speaker A:You wear these.
Speaker B:I'm shy because I think it's business.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker B:Because I think if you want to connect with people, you need to understand how they think.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Have you done tests?
Speaker B:Yeah, I've done it and it was quite true.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:It simplifies fine.
Speaker B:But to some extent, I think they're useful.
Speaker B:Yeah, I. I said especially not.
Speaker B:Not for external people, because you don't know.
Speaker B:Don't.
Speaker B:You don't know them very much.
Speaker B:But building a team, it can be useful.
Speaker C:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker A:Some silly questions.
Speaker A:Right wing, you think that's a business or right wing, Right.
Speaker B:What do you mean?
Speaker A:Well, who knows what it means anymore?
Speaker A:But traditionally that means like, you know.
Speaker B:Know you want my idea.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:And left wing, I would say again.
Speaker B:But I can tell you why, because again with the things of pronouns, I think the left wings has lost their closeness to the people and it's a huge mistake.
Speaker A:Oh, is the example.
Speaker A:That pronouns are a good example of them losing touch with people.
Speaker B:I think they should talk about Much more important things than pronouns.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I can talk about people.
Speaker B:They should talk about guarantees.
Speaker B:You know, in Italy, they were fighting Berlusconi so much, for example, that they forgot where they came from.
Speaker B:So you don't need to have an enemy in order to communicate your way of life, to communicate what you think about society.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:That's before enemies is.
Speaker B:And I think the left wing lost this.
Speaker A:It has got very.
Speaker A:Lost the.
Speaker A:These details.
Speaker A:I mean, my theory is that it's.
Speaker A:The conversation has become too hijacked by very young people, you know, that these sort of, you know, people who care what pronouns are generally, you know, you would care about that when you're 17.
Speaker A:You wouldn't care about it when you're 27.
Speaker B:Listen, I. I'm Italian, so you need to.
Speaker B:To create some context in what I'm saying.
Speaker B:But I have one of my closest friends, he lives in San Francisco.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:And he told me that they closed the school for days because there was a transgender boy and they didn't know what toilet he should be using.
Speaker C:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:Ishi.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Yeah, okay.
Speaker B:Should be using.
Speaker B:And that's where we.
Speaker B:We went too far in this, I think.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Approaching diversities is a very complex thing, but the way we should approach diversity is not the way that they are teaching now.
Speaker A:We're evolving.
Speaker A:I think we're working it out, hopefully.
Speaker B:Because that created damages for the very people that we're trying to protect.
Speaker A:Trying to protect.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And it brings too much attention to it.
Speaker A:I mean, on that note, diversity, quotas, which is the idea that you.
Speaker B:That's total bullshit.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:If you experience that, it's totally against meritocracy.
Speaker B:It's totally against who we are and what we think.
Speaker B:It makes no sense, in my opinion.
Speaker B:And I know it's not very popular to say, but I don't like it.
Speaker B:And I don't like it because what I was saying, you know, it doesn't protect the very people we want to protect.
Speaker A:Do you know, part of the issue, isn't it on why is the.
Speaker A:Why is the left lost?
Speaker A:What they should have had is it's got to a point that you can't.
Speaker A:If you say anything that is against these sort of extreme left things, you.
Speaker A:You say against diverse equators, you say against pronouns, you get condemned as being, like, this evil person.
Speaker A:You must be the others.
Speaker A:It's like, what happened to debate again?
Speaker A:That was supposed to be.
Speaker A:You know, what happened to just chatting about these things and having an opinion.
Speaker B:You know, because enemies come first.
Speaker B:That's the problem.
Speaker A:Enemies come first.
Speaker B:So you need think about it.
Speaker B:In Italy, they were so against Berlusconi that they forgot in Italy you have the left wing which is much more in favor of convicting people.
Speaker B:Today, for example.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:Which is crazy because, you know, you should be the party of the guarantees, but the enemy comes first.
Speaker B:And then you forget about who you are.
Speaker A:So Berlusconi was the enemy, sort of almost trump like right wing figure.
Speaker A:It was just too much.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:And then people want to convict him and then they sort of become out to get people and then that's sort of.
Speaker A:You're taking on a man and then it becomes culture.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, and then you forget about you, who you are, because you should be protecting, you know, the rights of the people, especially if you are left wing.
Speaker C:That's great.
Speaker A:Final question.
Speaker A:Equal paternity leave.
Speaker A:Equal.
Speaker A:When you have babies, business.
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And does it apply in Italy?
Speaker B:Absolutely.
Speaker B:I don't think think so.
Speaker A:Is it not?
Speaker B:No, I don't think so.
Speaker B:Our fathers would ever ask for paternity.
Speaker C:Leave, would they not?
Speaker B:It's not.
Speaker A:It's not really dumb.
Speaker A:You're a matriarchal society still.
Speaker B:Yes, we are.
Speaker A:That's a nice thing, though.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker B:As always, as always, powerful, strong.
Speaker A:Women, as we have three men in the room, we all relate to this.
Speaker B:Can be tough.
Speaker B:Can be tough.
Speaker B:But yeah, it means less conflict, probably.
Speaker A:You've been absolutely brilliant, Marco.
Speaker A:And I mean, obviously if you had an object to share, you've kind of spared us some time in between some other busy stuff you've got going on in London.
Speaker A:But I'm sure it would be food, wouldn't it?
Speaker C:It.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker A:You know, there is no greater expression of Italy than that, you know.
Speaker B:Yes, I think.
Speaker A:Thank you, Marco.
Speaker C:Well, your.
Speaker A:Your firm, if anyone wants to find out more, more about Marco Pistis, his firm, IPG you can find on the Internet.
Speaker A:I mean, what do you Google?
Speaker A:IPG IPG L E X. Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Lex IPG L E X.it yeah.
Speaker A:Fantastic firm.
Speaker A:If you need any help in Italy with anything, really, they're a cross discipline firm.
Speaker A:Like, like, like we are.
Speaker A:Clark.
Speaker A:Well, thank you so much.
Speaker A:That has been.
Speaker B:Thank you, Andy.
Speaker B:That was really nice.
Speaker A:Oh, it was really nice.
Speaker B:And it's been a long.
Speaker B:It's been a long time.
Speaker B:But I had so much fun.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker C:Oh, a pleasure.
Speaker A:Thank you, D. That was business without baggage.
Speaker A:And we'll be back with a new episode soon.
Speaker A:Ciao.
