Episode 387
Net Zero Is a Commercial Opportunity
EP 387 - We’re going back to the future this week with the excellent Akshat Rathi and his optimistic take on climate change.
Akshat is a Bloomberg Senior Climate journalist, and the author of Climate Capitalism: Winning The Global Race To Zero Emissions.
We spoke to him about his book, and:
Why climate solutions investment needs to be made in the developing world and emerging markets to help them move away from coal
Why he felt it was so important to tell positive stories to help accelerate the fight against climate change
And
Why he abandoned the idea of being a scientist (after getting a PhD) to become a storyteller in order to make a bigger positive impact on the world
As you’d expect from someone who writes for Bloomberg, he’s very balanced and very astute.
He’s happy to concede that climate change isn’t the only crisis facing humanity, but if we don’t fix it, it’ll make the others a whole lot worse.
You can’t help feeling more positive after spending time in his company, so give it a go.
*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*
Spotify Video Chapters:
00:00 BWB with Akshat Rathi
00:49 Andy's Intro to Akshat
01:53 The Importance of Climate Solutions
02:23 Challenges in Climate Journalism
07:23 Success Stories in Climate Action
11:16 The Role of Governments and Big Businesses
12:43 Akshat's Journey and Passion for Climate Journalism
18:36 Global Investment in Climate Solutions
28:19 Practical Steps for SMEs
29:43 Economic Realities in India
30:01 Air Conditioning Around the World
30:41 Career Reflections and Journalism
34:06 Work Culture and Balance
38:40 Social Media and Its Impact
42:32 Greenwashing and Corporate Responsibility
45:10 Quickfire - Get To Know Akshat
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BWB is powered by Oury Clark
Transcript
Business risk now and climate risk have intertwined and it's very real.
Speaker B:And is that what the book's about?
Speaker A:The book is about this big looming thing that we think is going to eat us all, and we're doing nothing about it.
Speaker A:And I show that's not true.
Speaker A:I wanted to try and tell the story of solutions, to tell the story of success rather than problems.
Speaker C:You feel so powerless as a small business.
Speaker C:Do you see that the big businesses have to lead and with government support.
Speaker A:The number of people working on climate solutions is just absolutely bonkers already and growing.
Speaker A:So it can be done, but it's not being done at the pace we need.
Speaker D:Hi and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.
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Speaker D:And come say hi on YouTube if you fancy watching us in action.
Speaker D:Links are in the episode description or just search for WBLondon.
Speaker D:We are going B B B Back to the Future this week with the excellent Akshat Rahati and his optimistic take on climate change.
Speaker D:Glad someone's being optimistic about it.
Speaker D:Akshat is a Bloomberg senior climate journalist and the author of Climate Winning the Global Race to Zero Emissions.
Speaker D:We spoke to him about his book and why climate solution investment needs to be made the developing world and emerging markets to help them move away from coal, why he felt it was so important to tell positive stories to help accelerate the fight against climate change, and why he abandoned the idea of being a scientist after getting a PhD to become a storyteller in order to make a positive impact on the world.
Speaker D:As you'd expect from someone who writes for Bloomberg, he's very balanced and very astute and positive.
Speaker D:Thank goodness he's happy to concede that climate change isn't the only crisis facing humanity, but if we don't f it'll make the others a whole lot worse.
Speaker D:You can't help feeling more joyful and positive after spending time in his lovely company.
Speaker D:So give it a go.
Speaker D:Enjoy.
Speaker C:I am Andy Oury and alongside me is my co host Bippa Sturt.
Speaker B:Hi Andy.
Speaker C:Hey.
Speaker C:And today we are joined by Akshat Rati.
Speaker C:How you doing, Akshat?
Speaker A:I'm good, thank you.
Speaker A:How are you?
Speaker C:I'm all right.
Speaker C:I'm all right.
Speaker C:I'm hanging in there.
Speaker C:So, Akshat is a senior reporter for Climate at Bloomberg News and is also an author who's released his first book, Climate Winning The Global Race to Zero Emissions.
Speaker C:Very good.
Speaker C:Lovely book.
Speaker C:That it is.
Speaker C:So, Akshat, we always start with this.
Speaker C:What's keeping Akshat up at night?
Speaker A:Usually it's when a big story is coming out because I'm worried about getting something wrong.
Speaker A:And once the piece is out and the fact is wrong, you have to get a correction.
Speaker A:It's such an embarrassment.
Speaker A:And so that usually keeps me up at night.
Speaker B:What's the process for fact checking?
Speaker B:How does it work?
Speaker A:Depends on the story.
Speaker A:Typically, if it's.
Speaker A:I'm the only author, then it's all on me and I have to make sure everything.
Speaker B:It's not a fun place to be.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:And, you know, sometimes once I'm done with a piece, I'm like, wait a second, it's only a thousand words and there are a hundred facts in there.
Speaker A:How does anybody write every day and not make mistakes all the time?
Speaker B:I think you'll find we do.
Speaker B:It just doesn't matter so much.
Speaker C:But I guess writing about this subject is that there's a lot more facts.
Speaker C:I mean, yes.
Speaker A:I mean, there's the science, there's technology, there's policy, there's numbers, there's projections, there's modeling.
Speaker A:So, yes, climate is a fun beat, complicated beat.
Speaker C:And I mean, is the climate information is for investors who are just looking at farming yields or hugely, is it a million things?
Speaker C:What do people use the climate information for?
Speaker A:So right now it's mostly for sort of macro trends to understand where to invest, to understand what kind of risks are coming to their own business.
Speaker A:If you're a big company, if you have a weather event that's going to cause your business to not be able to operate, you're going to have a loss in that region.
Speaker B:You have a factory on a very low promontory.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, a very good example is Unilever, for example, would make money selling ice cream.
Speaker A:There was a massive heat wave two years ago in North America, mostly in Canada, where temperatures reached 50 degrees Celsius during summer.
Speaker A:You'd think that would be great for ice cream, people would want more ice cream.
Speaker A:But the heat waves were so bad that people wouldn't leave their homes.
Speaker A:There were wildfires that were started because of the heat and ice cream sales dipped massively.
Speaker B:And there was no point in them buying the ice cream at the supermarket because by the time they got it home, it was gone over the back of the car.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:So business risk now and climate risk have intertwined and it's very real for.
Speaker B:Businesses and is that what the book's about or what's the book about?
Speaker A:The book is about this big looming thing that we think is going to eat us all and we're doing nothing about it.
Speaker A:And I show that's not true.
Speaker A:We have started doing things about it around the world at scale.
Speaker A:We're just not doing them fast enough.
Speaker A:And I'm hoping through the success stories in the book, people learn lessons and apply them in other places and we get on track.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker B:It's kind of you can do it because these people are already doing it.
Speaker B:And here's how.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:And it's not easy.
Speaker A:But we're not not doing it because it's not easy.
Speaker A:We're not doing it because we feel we cannot do something about it.
Speaker A:That's not true.
Speaker C:And you were particularly wanted to take an optimistic slant because it is one of those subjects, I guess, that could be quite negative all the time and puts everyone off.
Speaker A:And it's true.
Speaker A:But also as a journalist, a service that journalists provide, they provide other services.
Speaker A:But one service journalists provide is to point to problems and get other people to solve those problems, because that's what we can do best.
Speaker A:Writing a book is a different experience.
Speaker A:You get to take some story, work on it for years, put it out.
Speaker B:Spend a long time.
Speaker A:Long time.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I finished the book last year, so people are reading something that I finished, did not touch very much over a year ago.
Speaker A:So the stories have to be worthy of reading even after.
Speaker A:And so I wanted to try and tell the story of solutions, to tell the story of success rather than problems.
Speaker A:It's not to say I'm shying away from the problems.
Speaker A:They are in there.
Speaker A:I acknowledge them and I tell you all the challenges, but at the end of it, how do you overcome them and how people have overcome them?
Speaker C:Common let's have a success story, then give us one out of the book of, you know, something to be optimistic about.
Speaker A:So about six, seven years ago, China was the world's largest importer of cars.
Speaker A:Today it is the world's largest exporter of cars.
Speaker A:It exports more cars than Germany, than Japan, than the US and all that happened not in that concentrated period of six years, but over the past two decades.
Speaker A:And it's the second chapter in the book.
Speaker A:It talks about this guy named Wangang who was the Chinese science minister at the time.
Speaker A: For a decade between: Speaker A:He'd grown up in China, but studied and then worked in Germany and saw what kind of lifestyle Germans had.
Speaker A:And he wanted that for his people.
Speaker A: uch as they were consuming in: Speaker A:And there's just not enough oil for that.
Speaker A:And so he came back to the government and made the case that we need to build our auto industry to not burn oil.
Speaker A:Let's find other fuel sources, let's find other power sources.
Speaker A:And that's when they landed on trying to scale electric cars.
Speaker A:And so during his time in office, he got the state to put in $60 billion into creating the entire supply chain for batteries for electric cars, tens and hundreds of companies.
Speaker A:And now we're at that place where the Europeans are worried we're going to get cheap Chinese EVs.
Speaker B:But you know what?
Speaker B:That's really amazing for several reasons.
Speaker B:But one reason that immediately occurs to me that it's amazing is because we always think of people doing climate change and caring about climate change as a very altruistic thing.
Speaker B:You know, it's all about the planet and the people as a whole, and it's not about me.
Speaker B:And you've just told us a story where the entire impetus was, I would like a lifestyle, and I'd like the people close around me to have a lifestyle, which I can't see us getting if we don't do this thing.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:And I mean, that's why it's called climate capitalism.
Speaker A:I mean, there is a sense that trying to tackle climate change, you have to undo the economic system.
Speaker A:And sure, that would be a great ideal world to get into, but we don't actually know what that alternative system would look like and when will we build it and how long that will take.
Speaker A:And so over here, the goal is to say, okay, we've got an economic system that runs.
Speaker A:How can we fix it?
Speaker A:To actually solve the problem rather than worsen it.
Speaker B:And is there stuff in here?
Speaker B:When I say in here, I'm pointing at the book.
Speaker B:But is there stuff in here as well for kind of SMEs and the smaller businesses about what they can be doing and how they can do it?
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:I think the good part of climate change, in a way, is that we all need to be a part of the solution in some ways, whether you are a small business, big business, individual, an individual working in a corporation, all of us have a role to play, big and small.
Speaker A:But small, medium enterprises are crucial for the transition.
Speaker A:I mean, take the example of cars, right?
Speaker A:Cars okay, we talk about the big manufacturers, we talk about the big brands.
Speaker A:They rely absolutely on the small and medium enterprise to provide all the thousands of parts that are made that they assemble in cars.
Speaker A:Most of the time, they're not making those things.
Speaker A:And so the small and medium enterprise has to deliver.
Speaker A:It's the same case with Unilever, right?
Speaker A:One of the world's largest conglomerates that provides all these products that most people don't even know they come from Unilever.
Speaker A:But most of those ingredients are coming from small and medium enterprises, from farmers, from other people growing things for them.
Speaker A:And so, absolutely, there's a role for them.
Speaker C:The example you gave of China, I mean, China's very good at doing these sort of mass projects, isn't it?
Speaker C:And it can just sort of steamroller it through, decide what it's going to do.
Speaker C:Is that going to be important globally, that governments have the power just to push stuff through effectively?
Speaker A:So China is an extreme example, obviously, because of the politics of the country.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:They can, to some extent steamroll.
Speaker A:There's also a little bit of nuance there.
Speaker A:It's not as simple as a dictator saying this needs to happen.
Speaker A:And it happens even in China.
Speaker A:Governments push back against other governments.
Speaker A:There's fights between bureaucrats, there's corruption.
Speaker A:But you're right, governments have to play a bigger and bigger role.
Speaker A:It doesn't have to be a role where they dictate, but they do have to give more direction.
Speaker A:Because at the end of the day, we've kind of let.
Speaker A:I mean, the problem as we've landed up with is we've been ignoring the externalities of climate change.
Speaker A:We've been ignoring what we are doing when we just freely pollute.
Speaker A:And so now we have to take those costs into consideration and somebody has to bring those costs to bear.
Speaker A:And if businesses don't internalize on their own, and they rarely will voluntarily, nobody's going to tax themselves.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And so you do need to involve governments.
Speaker A:They just need to give you direction.
Speaker A:Doesn't mean you need to kill competition, it doesn't mean you need to kill markets.
Speaker A:But that's why it's climate capitalism.
Speaker A:It's a change in the way we do business.
Speaker C:Has it been a passion of yours for a long time?
Speaker C:I mean, you went in, you did climate at Bloomberg News.
Speaker C:Was that just random?
Speaker C:You ended up in that department or.
Speaker A:To some extent.
Speaker A:I mean, my passion was.
Speaker A:I've been a nerd all through growing up, like science and math and studied engineering.
Speaker A:And I thought, I'll become A professor.
Speaker A:So I did a PhD in chemistry, but alongside, I used to write as a hobby and doing my PhD.
Speaker A:I was like, nah, okay.
Speaker A:I thought I was going to be somebody and I don't want to be that person now.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:So I turned sort of my writing hobby into trying to do journalism.
Speaker A:I was like, okay, well, I have some knowledge that I've gained spending years in the lab and studying science.
Speaker A:What can I do with it?
Speaker A:And at the time, it felt to me there was a need, and still is a need for storytellers who know the subject.
Speaker A:And so I started as a science journalist, and then the climate turn sort of came because of Donald Trump.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A: Donald Trump was elected in: Speaker A: Around: Speaker A:But he continued on the bandwagon for so long, my editors were like, well, what is he talking about?
Speaker A:And I said, well, there is actually something real underneath it.
Speaker A:He doesn't understand it, but it's a technology called carbon capture.
Speaker A:You can actually trap emissions from power plants or industry and then bury them deep underground.
Speaker A:It's a thing that's been happening for the last three decades.
Speaker A:And they were like, wait a second, can you write more about that, please?
Speaker A:And so that's how I started.
Speaker B:Is that a permanent.
Speaker B:This is just a rather curious thing from me because I don't know much about it, but is that a permanent sort of solution?
Speaker B:Carbon capture?
Speaker B:Is there enough kind of space underground to shove everything we don't want under there forever?
Speaker A:Yes, there it is, a permanent solution.
Speaker A:It can be done in the right place at the right time, and there is enough space.
Speaker A:I mean, we do live in a big, big planet, and there is a lot of space around the world to be able to do stuff like this.
Speaker A:So when you do end up putting the carbon dioxide in the ground, it's not like it's a gas sitting in a tank.
Speaker A:Carbon dioxide itself is a chemical, right?
Speaker A:You compress it, it becomes a liquid, it goes down, you put it in these little pores.
Speaker A:And in the right places, like Iceland, there are rocks called basalt rocks where the carbon dioxide reacts with the rock and actually becomes a mineral.
Speaker A:So it's trapped as stone.
Speaker B:That is cool.
Speaker B:Sorry, I did not know that.
Speaker B:And now my mind is blown.
Speaker B:Carry on.
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, but at the moment, it's the sort of obsession for carbon, isn't it?
Speaker C:You know, you wonder the sacrifice of what else?
Speaker C:Because, I mean, it's a bit like we had someone talking about, you know, there's a nature crisis also going on and everyone's sort of obsessed with climate.
Speaker C:Do you think it's sort of folly of us to sort of just focus on CO2 and just be like, well, we've got to fix it, fix it, fix it.
Speaker C:You know?
Speaker A:Oh, it's a, it's.
Speaker A:There's a really nice cartoon that goes.
Speaker A:It's like a series of waves and they're bigger and bigger and bigger and they've all got these terrorizing monster mouths.
Speaker A:The smallest is Covid.
Speaker A:Then there's climate change, then there's biodiversity, then there's nature.
Speaker A:We are in a world where we are facing all these problems.
Speaker A:That doesn't mean we should just solve one.
Speaker A:But there is a very good case to make why we should be focusing on climate change.
Speaker A:Because every other problem becomes worse if we also don't deal with climate change, if we don't deal with carbon dioxide, but also generally greenhouse gases.
Speaker A:So another story in the book is this lady named Briony Worthington, she's now Baroness Briony Worthington, sits in the House of Lords.
Speaker A:And she started as an English major wanting to do conservation, loves nature, wanted to protect animals.
Speaker A:And for the first few years she did that.
Speaker A:And then one fine day she had a bunch of scientists and they were like, well, we are working on all this hard stuff, but is it going to matter anyway?
Speaker A:Because climate change is coming.
Speaker A:And that's when the penny dropped for her.
Speaker A:And she's like, I had not thought about it that way.
Speaker A:And now she's a climate person.
Speaker A:So it's not to say that's the only problem to solve, but every other problem becomes worse if we don't solve it.
Speaker C:And what do you feel?
Speaker C:I mean, is Bloomberg a good platform to sort of.
Speaker C:Is it a balanced platform, these sort of large news platforms?
Speaker C:I don't know where Bloomberg sits in the universe.
Speaker B:I mean, it's very business focused, isn't it?
Speaker B:So it's, it's looking at it through a business lens, right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Follow the money is probably the best mantra to describe what we do at Bloomberg News.
Speaker A:And that's one way to do journalism.
Speaker A:And I think it's a pretty valuable way to do journalism because at the end of the day, money moves the world.
Speaker A:And if you're able to track it and you're able to find it, where it goes, how it goes, why it moves, it's a good way to understand the world.
Speaker A:It's one lens, though.
Speaker A:It's not the only lens.
Speaker A:But, yeah, I find It a pretty interesting place to work.
Speaker A:There is debate and openness and no subject is off topic.
Speaker A:You can cover everything as long as there is a business financial lens to it.
Speaker C:And is that the climate desk, as it were, is it growing?
Speaker A:I guess, yeah.
Speaker A: So I joined in: Speaker A:So it's grown quite a bit.
Speaker A:We are probably the largest climate desk of a newsroom in the world.
Speaker C:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And, and what it what do you think the kind of key issues are right now?
Speaker B:You know, are people focusing on doing things differently so that, you know, you don't create these emissions in the first place or how to solve them once they're there?
Speaker A:If you look at globally, the biggest challenge is that money to do climate solutions is not being spent in developing countries.
Speaker A:So there is a big gap between what we are doing here in Europe or in North America spending money on renewables and on electric cars and in China too.
Speaker A:But in countries like India or Indonesia or South Africa or Brazil, like brics.
Speaker B:And things like that.
Speaker A:Yes, those are the places where a lot more investment needs to go in climate solutions.
Speaker A:And it's not happening because they don't have the money.
Speaker A:And you need these global investors sitting in the US and Europe to invest in those regions and they at this present moment are shirking away.
Speaker A:They are like, well, emerging markets too risky.
Speaker B:How do you get them to do it?
Speaker A:It's a very hard problem.
Speaker A:That's one big piece of missing solution that we need to figure out.
Speaker A:I mean, the closest we get to is this wonky idea that's come out recently.
Speaker A:It's called the Just Energy Transition Partnership.
Speaker A:And it's basically an idea where rich countries and investors bring money in to try and help countries like Indonesia and South Africa to move away from coal.
Speaker A:Because coal is the dirtiest form of fuel.
Speaker A:And if you move to cleaner fuel a, you get air pollution reduction and you get lower carbon emissions.
Speaker A:So the country wins and the planet wins.
Speaker A:So you want a win win solution.
Speaker A:And that's where they're bringing in government money, but also big, large private investors.
Speaker A:And it's a messy experiment.
Speaker A:Any experiment of this size where you're moving tens of billions of dollars is going to be hard to pull off.
Speaker A:But that's probably the best example right now.
Speaker C:It's a sort of we're reliant on big business, but you know, also with things like what's happened with Thames Water.
Speaker B:They seem to be not entirely altruistic.
Speaker C:Yeah, not entirely helping.
Speaker C:I mean, you feel so powerless as a small business and you don't know what to do or what you should be doing in a thing.
Speaker C:I mean, how do you see it?
Speaker C:Do you see that the big businesses have to lead and with government support.
Speaker A:Like you're saying, that's one way to do it.
Speaker A:There is no way around getting big, big businesses to change as well, because it's not like we're going to dismantle all the big businesses and just have small businesses running the show.
Speaker A:And so that's definitely one thing that you need to do.
Speaker A:But if you look at the Thames Water problem, I mean, it's also in a very weird market, right?
Speaker A:It's operating as a regulated monopoly.
Speaker A:And in the regulated monopoly, the regulator needs to be directing you to do the things that the regulator requires you to do.
Speaker A:In response, you, as a monopoly, get to make money.
Speaker A:And so if they don't do their job as a regulator and let the company make money without getting the services they require, then whose fault is it?
Speaker C:I guess the regulator, or I guess the regulator hasn't got enough teeth, is it?
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:I mean, businesses have a way of sort of trying to corrupt the political system because then they make their life easy.
Speaker A:And so there is sort of this rotating door, which we follow closely, of politicians going into business and vice versa.
Speaker A:You know, there are all these rules around how MPs should, after leaving their jobs, not get into lobbying and not getting into business.
Speaker A:And, you know, if they do, what's the fine they have to pay?
Speaker A:A few tens of thousands of pounds.
Speaker A:Businesses can afford that.
Speaker C:And is that the level of fines they would look at?
Speaker B:It is, sadly, and a lot of the time, particularly when MPs are still MPs, the decision is made by somebody who's answerable to the MPs.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Why aren't the regulators stronger?
Speaker C:I mean, why, why, why can't they find them heavier?
Speaker C:I mean, always fines, you always see old record fin and you think, oh, there's nothing to that company.
Speaker A:You know, it's true.
Speaker A:Most of the time these fines are not very much know that regulators need more teeth.
Speaker A:But also regulators are, after all, they are politicians who are elected by people.
Speaker A:So people need to realize who are the right politicians.
Speaker A:We need to pick because it's through that power that those politicians will have the teeth to make hard decisions.
Speaker C:Okay, but I mean, you managed to find some optimistic stories in what's going out and that's on the basis that, hey, we should be able to sort something out here.
Speaker C:If we, you know, we can do it in theory.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And there is no reason to believe we can't.
Speaker A:The technology kind of is there, there'll be innovation needed, but we've got the time.
Speaker A:We do know what types of policies we need.
Speaker A:We can't.
Speaker A:We, we have the entrepreneurs.
Speaker A:The number of people working on climate solutions is just absolutely bonkers already and growing.
Speaker A:So it can be done, but it's not being done at the pace we need.
Speaker C:And because Britain was trying to play a sort of leading role in this, is that not so true anymore or is it important we do?
Speaker A:If you are going to lead in this fight, you will benefit from it.
Speaker A:So look at what China is doing, right?
Speaker A:When it went down the electric car route, the battery route, it created an industry for itself that's now a global leader.
Speaker A:That's why the Europeans are afraid that cheap Chinese cars are going to come to their shores.
Speaker A:So that is the place of the future.
Speaker A:That's where the future industries are going to be and that's where the future jobs are going to be.
Speaker A:You can play slow if you would like, but then you lose out in the long term.
Speaker A:And the uk, even today, is the leader in cutting emissions globally.
Speaker A:This is true among the large economies.
Speaker A:Yes, among all the large economies, among all the G20 countries.
Speaker A:And it is at a risk, and has been for few years now, not just under sunag, but under Boris Johnson, under Theresa May, of losing that position because it's not on track.
Speaker A:And so when Sunak comes in and says, oh, we've been so good so far, we can slow down a little bit?
Speaker A:That's not, that's just rhetoric.
Speaker A:That's politics.
Speaker C:And do you think, like, if you're building an office building now and things, that you, you should be investing, you know, a large proportion more than you would otherwise to make it super carbon neutral.
Speaker C:I mean, this is a sort of, it's a, it's the same for people's homes, isn't it?
Speaker C:It's all very well saying you're going to get a heat pump and things, but the costs are astronomical.
Speaker C:So it's a real issue.
Speaker A:And that's why you need policy support, that's why you need clarity that there are deadlines, you have to meet them, that there will be support for you.
Speaker A:If these prices are high, and they are in certain cases, I mean, heat pumps, an actual real thing that the government can do is change the price of electricity.
Speaker A:So we are currently paying a fee for renewable electricity as part of the net zero mandate in our electricity bills.
Speaker C:We all are, we all are.
Speaker A:So it's a small amount.
Speaker A:It comes in our bills.
Speaker A:You know, it's not noticeable in that sense because it's been there for many years.
Speaker A:But you could very well apply that fee and put it on gas instead of electricity.
Speaker B:Yeah, fair point.
Speaker A:We've got already such good, clean electricity now.
Speaker A:We don't need to be charging more on electricity when it's becoming cleaner.
Speaker A:You want to charge more on, on the dirty stuff, which is gas.
Speaker A:And that's a rule that can absolutely be changed by the government.
Speaker C:Do you feel as part of a larger media outlet that you, you can make a difference with your voice or do you feel that the sort of independent media outlets are, you know, more able to sort of get, get, get, get.
Speaker C:Oh, this is so time consuming.
Speaker B:Spit it out.
Speaker B:Come on.
Speaker A:This is a game.
Speaker A:I left long back.
Speaker A:So when I wanted to become a professor, I wanted to become a professor because I wanted to change the world.
Speaker A:And then I went into academia and I saw what I was doing, which was sitting in a lab for hours and hours and hours trying to make a dent in the corner of a scientific paper that only 100 people are going to read.
Speaker A:And that might change the world, but in a way that nobody will notice.
Speaker A:And so I kind of decided at that time there's very little an individual has the power to controllably change the world.
Speaker A:The people who get to change the world often are quite lucky to be in the place and the time to do it.
Speaker A:The best I can do is the effort I can put into whatever work I'm doing.
Speaker A:So it's a little bit of a Zen corn type of situation.
Speaker A:But I've made peace with the fact that I don't know if I'll change the world.
Speaker A:I'm just going to try my best to tell the best stories I can.
Speaker C:Okay, so an optimistic book or some stories we can do.
Speaker C:We need the governmental help.
Speaker C:I mean, is there anything tangible right now that a small or medium sized business should be doing or could do?
Speaker A:The quickest one would be to deploy renewable energy.
Speaker A:So a lot of renewable energy that you can build on your sort of warehouse, your office is affordable, is cheap, actually will cut bills and makes a big difference.
Speaker A:The second, if you're in sort of the colder regions as the UK is to insulate your office, have an office that has good air circulation, is more efficient at managing heat because the largest energy consumption for Buildings is heat.
Speaker A:Here in the UK, about 30% of all our emissions from the entire year come from sort of wintertime heating.
Speaker A:So you could do a lot just managing those two things.
Speaker C:Try and get people to turn the lights off too.
Speaker C:That's always.
Speaker A:The lights are totally fine now.
Speaker C:Really?
Speaker A:Really.
Speaker A:Like LEDs are so efficient.
Speaker B:Oh, we can leave the lights on.
Speaker B:Leave the lights on.
Speaker C:Fantastic.
Speaker B:But I mean it's only going to get worse as, as we all now want air conditioning as well as heating in the winter.
Speaker B:So we're kind of doubling up.
Speaker B:We are on that electricity use.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:I mean air conditioning use is growing everywhere.
Speaker A:When I grew up in India, in Nasik especially, the weather was fantastic.
Speaker A:We never needed air conditioning.
Speaker A:But for the last five years my parents have been complaining and eventually they got an air conditioner.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:I mean nowadays most people in India probably have one, wouldn't they really?
Speaker A:Not really.
Speaker A:I mean it's, India's still a pretty poor country.
Speaker A:So you know, your average income is two and a half thousand dollars a year.
Speaker C:A year.
Speaker C:That's the average income in India.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker C:My goodness.
Speaker B:What's your long term goal for what you're doing?
Speaker A:It's one of those things.
Speaker A:Again, I've sort of kind of given up on the long term plan.
Speaker A:You know, when I gave up on being a professor it was like I had a long term plan, I had a five year plan, I had a ten year plan and I was going to do this and then I was like, wait a second, I don't really control what's happening.
Speaker A:So to me just being able to tell good stories and do good journalism in the long term, that sounds like a good plan.
Speaker C:That's a good plan.
Speaker C:How old are you?
Speaker A:36.
Speaker B:You call most people that you can.
Speaker C:The news industry does seem in a bit of a sort of crazy state.
Speaker C:You know, is Bloomberg in a nice healthy place or you sort of, you.
Speaker A:Know, Bloomberg's been that way, a nice place to work A because it has a business model that funds news in a sustainable way because it provides all these services to financial institutions that require that information and do pay the money for that information.
Speaker A:So Bloomberg is among the rare places which are doing okay.
Speaker A:New York Times is probably the other one.
Speaker A:Ft is that Financial Times is doing all right.
Speaker A:So the business publications, Wall street journals doing fairly.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:The business publications tend to do okay.
Speaker C:It's kind of ironic because they're, they're all about money, but in a weird way that they're sort of some of the most balanced out There at the moment, you know what I mean?
Speaker C:In terms of they're just trying to fact report, you know, as opposed to sort of sensationalized so much.
Speaker A:If you want to make money, you need to understand reality.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:But also, I think you're right, you know, because I keep banging on about it really.
Speaker B:It was because it was such a great day.
Speaker B:I went to the Financial Times summer.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, the festival.
Speaker B:Yeah, festival.
Speaker B:And it was just great.
Speaker B:But it wasn't just a, you know, a few of the talks had business slants and they were really interesting.
Speaker B:But there were talks on all kinds of crazy shit.
Speaker B:I mean, not because it was very measured and very thought provoking and really interesting, but, you know, they came across as very serious and thoughtful journalists.
Speaker B:And I think you get the same from Bloomberg or any of those kind of business, kind of centric.
Speaker C:It's not tittle tattle, you know, what Harry and Meghan's doing is not really relevant for business.
Speaker B:What has been your biggest, would you say your biggest failure so far?
Speaker B:Was there something that happened that you really wish hadn't?
Speaker A:I mean, everyone study engineering?
Speaker C:I studied engineering.
Speaker C:God, no.
Speaker C:There's no women, you know.
Speaker C:Did you study engineering in India?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:What is it called?
Speaker C:Mit.
Speaker A:It's called the Institute of Chemical Technology.
Speaker A:Technology.
Speaker A:It's in Mumbai.
Speaker A:But I wouldn't study engineering.
Speaker C:Because you did chemical engineering.
Speaker A:Chemical engineering too, yeah.
Speaker B:But I suppose it's also, it's also narrowing your interest barrier very early.
Speaker A:That's the problem I had in India.
Speaker A:There's so much competition, just so many of us that you have to kind of hyper specialize as you grow up.
Speaker A:And I feel like that's one lost opportunity in life where I had to hyper specialize because that's what everybody did.
Speaker B:Expand.
Speaker A:Well, that's what I'm doing now as a journalist.
Speaker A:I learned on the job.
Speaker C:I mean, people in India work crazy hours.
Speaker C:You know, all the Indians I work with, they always answer their phone, you know, constantly messaging you constantly.
Speaker A:It's a hustle being.
Speaker A:Being in India.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's a hustle.
Speaker A:You got to make it work for you.
Speaker A:And if that means working long hours, you have to.
Speaker C:Out of interest you.
Speaker C:Do you translate that here?
Speaker C:Do you find you still work longer than your London colleagues?
Speaker A:Yes, I.
Speaker A:Lisa?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Really, it's just survival instinct.
Speaker A:I mean, it's to some extent, it's not just being Indian, it's also being an immigrant.
Speaker A:You know, you come to a country, you don't know the culture.
Speaker A:So what do you do?
Speaker A:You turn around and you do the best you can at the work that you can do.
Speaker C:And so to make all the locals look bad.
Speaker C:So everyone hates you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:How long have you been here?
Speaker A:It's been 15 years now.
Speaker B:Okay, so you've, you know, you should be pretty okay with, with how relaxed we all are.
Speaker B:You don't believe in work life balance?
Speaker A:No, I mean, I like work life balance.
Speaker A:I mean, it's necessary.
Speaker A:Because you can't work your way through doing good work.
Speaker A:Your brain only can function for so long, so you need to be able to take the breaks and be able to give yourself the room to be able to think and do the hard work.
Speaker A:I mean, especially the kind of work I do is all mental work.
Speaker A:You know, I'm speaking to people, I'm trying to connect the dots.
Speaker A:And so no, my, my sort of work life balance is exercise.
Speaker B:I was going to say, what do you do for fun?
Speaker B:But exercise is not fun.
Speaker A:Oh, I thought so too.
Speaker A:And then three years ago, I started exercising and it's fun and I can't believe it.
Speaker A:I used to laugh at people who used to go for runs.
Speaker A:I'd be like, what are you doing?
Speaker A:Why do you run?
Speaker A:Looking at the same track for two hours.
Speaker A:And now I'm what?
Speaker A:I'm that person.
Speaker C:You sure it's not fun?
Speaker C:It's just fun to have the buzz afterwards, isn't it?
Speaker A:But there is the buzz during, is there?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:I've never.
Speaker B:I had a friend who was a.
Speaker B:She was actually a classics professor at a university, but she was also a fitness instructor.
Speaker B:And she was always like, oh, the endorphins are amazing.
Speaker B:You'll enjoy it so much.
Speaker B:And I'm like, no, I just exercise for an hour and then I feel tired and ill.
Speaker A:Exactly what I used to see.
Speaker A:Like, I cannot.
Speaker A:Like, every time I talk about this, I'm like, I can't believe I'm that person now.
Speaker C:What changed?
Speaker A:I started doing it because I'd gained a little bit of weight and it was pretty apparent.
Speaker A:And then I was like, well, what can I do?
Speaker A:Maybe I should start running.
Speaker A:And then I.
Speaker A:Then it just got addictive.
Speaker A:It's, it's, it is addictive.
Speaker B:It's addictive.
Speaker A:And that the fact that it's addictive is absolutely crazy to me.
Speaker B:You should so totally start exercising.
Speaker C:I do exercise.
Speaker B:See you.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:I don't know, I just.
Speaker B:Because it feels like it would fit with your personality.
Speaker B:Quail.
Speaker C:So any great advice you've ever been given, Negotiate a salary Negotiate a salary.
Speaker A:Yeah, I didn't do that for the first three jobs.
Speaker C:All the time or whenever you change.
Speaker A:A job, whenever, every time you have a raise, negotiate your salary.
Speaker C:Do you think like you should.
Speaker C:What people always, what they were earning.
Speaker C:What are you currently on?
Speaker C:You sort of, you know, you're quite people.
Speaker B:Not often quite often because I always assume that if I, if I haggle, which is kind of another word for negotiate, that you're just going to be seen as difficult.
Speaker C:You are.
Speaker C:The Indians just love to do it, but you know, the English hate it.
Speaker A:Well, we haggle for paying money.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:That's a.
Speaker A:There's a lot of haggling in the market, but when it comes to salary, I was just grateful somebody thought I could write.
Speaker A:And so if somebody's giving me a job to write, I'm like, great, thank you for paying me to do something I like.
Speaker B:It's like because I'm worth it, you should be paying me more.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Is that would be your approach, would it?
Speaker C:Just straight up, you should pay me more.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I will try and understand the market and if I'm paying, I'm being paid on the market.
Speaker A:I would ask for what market rate is.
Speaker C:It's really hard to work out market rates though.
Speaker C:You people say you can, but it's.
Speaker A:Actually these days, at least in my generation, that I've seen people are pretty transparent about talking about salaries.
Speaker B:I mean, if companies always tell their staff they're not allowed to talk about salary and staff always talk about salary, there's no two ways about it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:How many people in your building in Bloomberg?
Speaker C:You're in that, the big fancy Bloomberg building.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's like 5,000 people.
Speaker B:That's lovely building.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Are they still giving away all the free food?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Wow, okay.
Speaker C:That's a selling point.
Speaker C:So you wouldn't move to BBC News then.
Speaker D:And now a quick word from our sponsor.
Speaker D:Business without is brought to you by Ori Clark.
Speaker D: ancial and legal advice since: Speaker D:You can find us@uticlark.com Ori is spelled O.
Speaker C:Uh.
Speaker D:Before we press on, just a quick reminder to come say hi on whatever social platform you like.
Speaker D:We're pretty much on all of them.
Speaker D:Just search for WB London.
Speaker C:What do you think is in your industry and why?
Speaker A:I think social media is bullshit.
Speaker A:It's sort of like you have to be on it because everybody else is on it.
Speaker B:And are you on kind of like all social media feeds?
Speaker A:There's just no way around it.
Speaker C:I have to.
Speaker C:I really agree with the like.
Speaker C:It's like it's poison.
Speaker C:But you have to be on it.
Speaker A:Yeah, sort of.
Speaker C:Because otherwise if you're not on it, no one knows what you're doing.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's.
Speaker A:Problem with that.
Speaker A:There is no way to do it healthily.
Speaker A:You kind of have to be on it and in it all or nothing.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Does anyone love social media?
Speaker C:I mean, you know, because I get the feeling certainly people who have to produce stuff for social media that actually, no one actually really likes it.
Speaker C:Basically underneath it.
Speaker B:I really love social media.
Speaker B:Well, no, I lie.
Speaker A:I really love X.
Speaker A:Oh, my God.
Speaker C:You said it.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:I did say it.
Speaker C:You've moved on.
Speaker B:I have moved on.
Speaker B:I've just got to get over it because, I mean, I'm on Blue sky and I'm trying to use Blue sky and I'm trying to do that whole thing.
Speaker B:But I just love.
Speaker C:Blue sky is the sort of new competitor.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:I mean, I love Twitter.
Speaker B:I love the curated, like, people that I follow.
Speaker B:I love them all.
Speaker A:But don't you think it's lost its magic?
Speaker A:There was a moment when Twitter was good and now it's sort of like because of this, people splitting their time.
Speaker B:Into other interesting things.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I, you know, and everybody says, oh, it's really poisonous.
Speaker B:And I don't see that purely because I'm just a small person who doesn't really have any followers, who.
Speaker C:It's funny.
Speaker C:But I do note that a lot of the time when it's funny, if someone is getting proper lambasted.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah, someone has posted something on social media and then it's hilarious, everyone.
Speaker C:Then you're like, ha, ha.
Speaker C:But there's actually someone.
Speaker C:He's getting absolutely slammed and that must.
Speaker B:Be a horrible experience sometimes.
Speaker B:I mean, this morning I couldn't stop laughing and it's not even that funny.
Speaker B:But it was a headline, about £77,000 to tailor I.
Speaker B:E.
Speaker B:Design Swift nesting sites.
Speaker B:Like Swift the Birds.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And somebody.
Speaker B:And the headline was like, Leicestershire Council give 77,000 to Taylor Swift nesting sites.
Speaker B:And somebody had tweeted, I sort of assumed she stayed in hotels.
Speaker B:And I literally couldn't stop laughing for about 10 minutes.
Speaker B:And like, you know, it's like just moments like that, you're like, yeah.
Speaker A:In my world, it's more like.
Speaker A:It's more disinformation.
Speaker A:It's sort of like twisting the facts.
Speaker A:It's making up stuff.
Speaker A:It's doing climate denialism.
Speaker A:It's taking good stuff and cherry picking and making bad stuff out of it.
Speaker B:And as a, as a journalist where you've got a job that requires you to sort of seek out real stuff as opposed to fake news, I can imagine that that's really hard.
Speaker A:You know, like we need more public education, we need more critical thinking.
Speaker A:We need people to be able to understand the complex world we are in.
Speaker A:But what social media ends up doing is oversimplifying, dumbing it down to an extent where it becomes absurd and then you're able to just twist the words as you would like to, you know, feed your own interests.
Speaker B:And it's also, and it feels like that whole social media thing where you can say what you like and just make shit up is now bleeding over into mainstream media, right?
Speaker A:I mean, media in a way is actually a reflection of society, right.
Speaker A:We kind of get the media we deserve, of course, the politicians.
Speaker A:It's the same situation, right?
Speaker A:Like the media is making its money off of you, right?
Speaker A:The audience and the audience wants a certain thing.
Speaker A:That's what the media will give you.
Speaker A:So it is a sad situation that.
Speaker A:That's true if it's bleeding into media as much.
Speaker A:And yes, I mean, GB News is sort of like the Fox News coming from America to the uk, right?
Speaker B:We're a country of Daily Mail readers.
Speaker C:We talked a bit about regulators.
Speaker C:I have to ask with my accounting hat on is, you know, are you aware of the sort of, there's a new audit standard and stuff.
Speaker C:Do you think, do you think there's so much, you know, greenwashing and everything, but do you think, you know, this sort of pushing companies to, to disclose and stuff is having an effect or.
Speaker A:Oh, we know it's having an effect.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:So we've seen when we write stories about calling companies out on their greenwashing, they get careful the next time around.
Speaker B:How do you mean they get careful?
Speaker B:They hide it better or.
Speaker A:Either they're hiding it better or we've also seen them stopping doing the bad thing.
Speaker C:You would call, that would be part of your job to try and identify people doing greenwashing.
Speaker C:And it's, it's rife, isn't it?
Speaker A:Oh, very easy because it's so easy to make up the numbers and it's so easy to sell an idea, but to test it is hard.
Speaker A:And so that's our job.
Speaker A:And there's so much of it that we get to it slowly through company by company.
Speaker C:So it's very research led your journalism very much.
Speaker C:It's like just trying to get the facts and look at Read the data.
Speaker C:You're all scientists then basically.
Speaker A:No, but facility with numbers is useful.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker B:But also it's a great, that's a great defense of why reporting stuff like doing the financial reporting is actually useful.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like you're sort of sitting there saying, oh my God, there's so many more rules on audits and it's a pain in the butt for us to have to.
Speaker C:No, I think it's probably good the new audit thing, but audits are a.
Speaker B:Pain for sure, you know, and the companies have to produce a load more stuff than they had to do before and that's a pain for them.
Speaker B:But there's clearly method in the madness, of course.
Speaker A:And bureaucracy.
Speaker A:I mean too much regulation will also bog businesses down there is that is also a true correct line.
Speaker A:But you do need regulations, good regulations.
Speaker C:And I guess you're in a profession and we're in a profession.
Speaker C:So there is still a profession as a journalism with integrity and a duty to get it right and stuff.
Speaker C:You know, again, being driven by.
Speaker C:You're writing for a publication that has to get it right because people are making financial decisions, you know, and accuracy is everything.
Speaker A:And I've been a journalist 10 years of my life and I've been fortunate to be surrounded by really good journalists all through that.
Speaker A:I've not been at Bloomberg for all that period, but all the places I've worked at, I've only found honest people wanting to do the hard work at pretty low salaries because they believe in the service that journalism provides.
Speaker A:And again, that may be a bubble.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Every one of us lives in a bubble.
Speaker A:But it's been a big enough bubble that I have learned from them and tried to apply that craft.
Speaker C:Do you think journalists should be paid more?
Speaker A:100%.
Speaker A:It's like teachers should be paid more, nurses should be paid more.
Speaker A:They are providing a service to society that's not compensated to the right level.
Speaker C:So now we're going to do a 10 second quick fire round.
Speaker C:We're going to ask you a list of questions and you just quick, quick answers, please.
Speaker C:Up to 10 seconds.
Speaker C:DQ the music.
Speaker C:Akshat, are you ready?
Speaker A:I am ready.
Speaker C:Very good.
Speaker B:What was your first job?
Speaker A:Putting out leaflets.
Speaker A:For the marketing thing.
Speaker C:In India?
Speaker A:No, here at Oxford.
Speaker C:Oh, very good.
Speaker C:What was your worst job?
Speaker A:Putting out leaflets.
Speaker B:I really.
Speaker B:That's the first time ever that we've had the same first job in worst job.
Speaker B:And I love that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:What was your favorite subject at school?
Speaker A:Maths.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:Not chemistry.
Speaker C:What's your special skill?
Speaker A:Being able to nap at any point in time.
Speaker C:Nap.
Speaker B:Oh, that's a great skill.
Speaker A:Anywhere.
Speaker A:Anywhere.
Speaker C:Could you do it now, do you think?
Speaker A:Yeah, you'll have to give me my headphones.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's it.
Speaker A:I just need headphones.
Speaker C:Why you put music on, do you?
Speaker C:What sort of music?
Speaker A:It's Max Richter piano.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:And that just knocks you out, does it?
Speaker A:It's like.
Speaker C:So if they play that in public, it's dangerous driving a vehicle.
Speaker B:Narcolepsy.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:What did you want to be when you grew up?
Speaker A:The earliest memory of this is being.
Speaker A:Wanting to be a pilot.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker C:Any.
Speaker C:Any.
Speaker C:A jet pilot or like just any planet airline pilot.
Speaker A:I, I did not fly Till I was 15, but I wanted to be one when I was three years old.
Speaker A:I was like, wow, you can fly.
Speaker C:Isn't that the most damaging thing for the environment though?
Speaker A:It is, yeah.
Speaker C:So you, you, you're ambitious.
Speaker A:I didn't know climate change existed.
Speaker B:It was trying to make you feel guilty.
Speaker C:What did your parents went need to.
Speaker A:Be an engineer today.
Speaker B:What's your go to karaoke song?
Speaker A:It's a very embarrassing one.
Speaker A:It's Barbie girl back or Barbie girl?
Speaker A:Yeah, Barbie girl, yeah.
Speaker A:And I'll always do it with somebody.
Speaker A:And the, the Ken part in there are so little.
Speaker B:Doesn't he just go, come on Barbie, let's go party?
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker C:Oh, this.
Speaker C:There is some lines for Ken.
Speaker B:I mean, I'm embarrassed that I know that I have a.
Speaker B:I have a.
Speaker C:Seen the Barbie film, but everyone says it's brilliant.
Speaker C:Have you seen the Barbie film?
Speaker B:It's amazing.
Speaker C:Yeah, but it's really good.
Speaker C:Office dogs, Business or business.
Speaker C:Oh, very good.
Speaker B:What's your vice?
Speaker A:Video games.
Speaker C:Is it?
Speaker A:I get obsessed.
Speaker B:What kind of like story?
Speaker A:Sort of driven, mostly narrative, but also sometimes sort of arcadey when I want to beat a high score.
Speaker A:Video games.
Speaker A:It's so easy.
Speaker B:Anything we should be listening to?
Speaker B:Watching?
Speaker B:Reading.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Apart from climate capitalism, if you want.
Speaker A:To do more of understanding where we are in the world with climate solutions, there's a book called Bottled Lightning which is about batteries and how they came to be and I really found it fascinating.
Speaker A: perspective is a book called: Speaker A:Really nice book.
Speaker C:So how many weeks you have to live is it?
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker A:And it's kind of an anti productivity book, so I'm not selling it very well.
Speaker A:But it's actually a productivity book, which is to say it's a good book.
Speaker A:Read it.
Speaker C:Okay, well it's A productivity book that makes you not productive?
Speaker A:No, it's the other way around.
Speaker A:It's a book about a philosophical rant on why productivity as a concept that we have understood is wrong.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker A:And to break out from that concept and be actually productive, you have to do things very differently than being taught to.
Speaker A:With all these life hacks and these efficiency things that we come up with.
Speaker A:It's a good book.
Speaker C:Wow.
Speaker C:I like a philosophical rant.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What was it called?
Speaker A:4,000 weeks.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That doesn't feel like very many.
Speaker C:No, that's why they do it like that.
Speaker A:It isn't very long.
Speaker B:I'm now scared.
Speaker C:I know.
Speaker A:And Chris Packham's latest documentary on Channel four.
Speaker C:Oh, the legend.
Speaker C:Chris Packham, who I grew up with, the nature guy.
Speaker A:Is it time to break the law?
Speaker C:Is it time to break the law?
Speaker A:It's on Channel 4.
Speaker A:You can watch it online.
Speaker C:Okay, well, what's it about?
Speaker B:It's about whether being an activist is something you.
Speaker B:It's now so serious.
Speaker B:That is something you should consider.
Speaker A:Not just that he is an activist.
Speaker A:He says that from start.
Speaker A:He says.
Speaker A:Is it now that activists need to break the law to be able to make change happen?
Speaker C:Yeah, I guess, to some extent, they always have to.
Speaker B:Okay, so this is where we give you 30 seconds to pitch whatever you'd like.
Speaker B:Away you go.
Speaker A:Well, I hope people will read Climate Capitalism and all the stories of very interesting people who are solving some of the problems that we really do need to solve, and may others learn from them.
Speaker C:Brilliant.
Speaker B:Fantastic.
Speaker C:So there you have it.
Speaker C:That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit.
Speaker C:Thank you, Akshat.
Speaker C:Thank you, Pippa.
Speaker C:Thank you, Dee.
Speaker C:We'll be back with our quiz, Business War Bullshit on Friday.
Speaker C:Until then, it's Ciao.
Speaker A:Sam.
