Episode 406
Tax, HMRC and Sportswashing: Economist Oriana Morrison Explains
EP 406 - Economist and tax strategist Oriana Morrison pulls doesn't hold back in our chat about the UK economy, HMRC, tax avoidance, and inequality.
Founder and CEO of ECNMX and trusted advisor to world champion athletes and entertainers, Oriana Morrison explains why HMRC is “shameful,” how tax is used as social engineering, and why Britain risks losing its top talent to fairer systems abroad.
From the realities of sportswashing in Saudi boxing to the politics of envy driving the UK’s broken tax system, Oriana shares blunt insights you won’t hear from politicians, even or accountants.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
Why Oriana Morrison calls HMRC “shameful”
The hidden truth about tax, fairness and inequality
How sportswashing in Saudi boxing really works
Why Britain risks a Latin American-style economic collapse
How tax myths are driving talent and wealth out of the UK
If you want to hear about the future of Britain’s economy, the truth about tax and HMRC, and what it really means for athletes, creatives, and entrepreneurs, pull up a chair and press play.
*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*
Spotify Video Chapters:
00:00 BWB with Oriana Morrison
01:30 Sportswashing in Saudi?
04:09 Economic Realities of Sports Consumption
09:33 Oriana's Role and Expertise
14:01 Tax and Economic Policies
16:57 HMRC: Challenges and Criticisms
26:50 Global Economic Perspectives
42:28 Insider Trading and Ethical Dilemmas
42:54 Navigating Client Relationships and Global Networks
43:37 Oriana's Story: The Band Fallout
46:32 Legal Battles and Partnership Laws
53:11 Lessons Learned and Client Challenges
59:42 Social Media vs. Tax Advice
01:04:48 Quickfire - Get To Know Oriana
01:08:49 !Business or Bullshit Quiz!
01:17:10 Wrap Up
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Transcript
On today's Business Without Bullshit, we meet Orianna Morrison, the Brazilian born economist who became a top tax strategist for world class athletes and entertainers.
Speaker A:From FIFA to Anthony Joshua, she's seen it all and she's not shy about calling out nonsense in sport, business and tax.
Speaker A:This one's about money, power and how to not get ripped off.
Speaker A:Let's get into it.
Speaker A:Hello and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.
Speaker A:I am Andy Uri and today we are delighted to be joined by Orianna Mor.
Speaker A:Oriana is founder and CEO of ecnmx.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:A tax strategist and cross border advisor of some of the world's top athletes and entertainers.
Speaker A:Born in Brazil, trained in economics, Oriana launched her firm during the global financial crisis when, as she puts it, no one would hire a foreign woman with a two year visa.
Speaker A:Fast forward to today.
Speaker A:Oriana is now trusted by global organizations like FIFA or UEFA and champions like Anthony Joshua or Oriana's mission is deeply personal.
Speaker A:After watching her husband lose everything when his band was dropped just before success, Oriana saw how the System 2 often exploits talent.
Speaker A:She's since dedicated her career to helping athletes, artists and creatives not only achieve their dreams, but protect their futures through proactive tax of financial planning.
Speaker A:Oriana, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:You're very welcome.
Speaker A:You're welcome.
Speaker A:I just wanted to start with a simple question, Oriana.
Speaker A:You're in this world of tax and sport and everything like that, you know, there's a huge amount of money swilling around in industries and you've questioned, you know, money going into Saudi boxing.
Speaker A:Do you see it as a smart investment or do you see that as sports washing?
Speaker A:How do you feel about that?
Speaker B:I feel it's a very expensive hobby for them.
Speaker A:Oh really?
Speaker A:For the Saudis?
Speaker B:Yes, for the Saudis.
Speaker B:They're not doing it right.
Speaker B:They don't understand how sport is consumed, they don't understand what audiences are into and they think that just throwing the biggest, flashiest sporting events, then everything's going to be all right.
Speaker B:But it doesn't really work like that.
Speaker A:I mean, they've had a huge impact on boxing.
Speaker A:You know, all of the fights are there now.
Speaker A:I mean, I think it is working to some extent, isn't it?
Speaker B:It's working for the people who are getting paid, such as the boxers, which is great.
Speaker B:I mean, if you have the option to go to America where someone's going to cut you a $10 million check, but then you're going to have to pay 37% tax on it as opposed to going to Saudi Arabia instead.
Speaker B:But they're going to cut you a 40 million check and you're not going to pay any tax over there.
Speaker A:You're going to pay tax in your home country though.
Speaker B:You're going to pay tax in your home country, but still it's still a 40 million check.
Speaker B:So once everything's sort of.
Speaker A:They've doubled the money.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:They more than double the money.
Speaker B:So what are you going to do?
Speaker B:You have a family to look after.
Speaker B:It's your job.
Speaker B:You have a relatively short career as a boxer and then you have two options.
Speaker B:Option number one, someone's going to cut you a $10 million check to go and fight.
Speaker B:I mean, you're getting punched in the face for a job.
Speaker B:It's hard.
Speaker B:And the other people are going to pay you a $40 million check whether you win or lose.
Speaker A:But do you feel, you know, this attitude, you know, a bit like with Newcastle football team, do you feel that, you know, people come in with money into these industries, you know, to effectively build the brand of their country away from, you know, what Saudi was known for or people's understanding of Saudi a little while ago, you know, I mean, you're saying a they don't really know what they're doing.
Speaker A:Which is an interesting point.
Speaker A:You know, we could explore further.
Speaker A:But what do you feel about sportswashing about this sort of, you know, I'm just going to chuck money at this thing.
Speaker A:I'm going to bring all these tournaments here, you know, and that will somehow, you know, counteract all the other stuff that's going on in our country.
Speaker A:Do we care?
Speaker A:Should we care?
Speaker B:Should we care?
Speaker B:Well, that's a very good question.
Speaker B:No, we shouldn't care.
Speaker B:You know, it's fine that they love sport.
Speaker B:I think it's a vibe that they're trying to diversify their economy and go for it.
Speaker B:Obviously you can't pull the wool over other people's eyes.
Speaker B:And just doing that is not going to solve the problem as in all the other problems that they have.
Speaker B:It's not going to mask over it.
Speaker B:If you think about it, it's quite similar to Brazil as well.
Speaker B:Brazil.
Speaker B:Every single socio economic and political problem in Brazil is sport washed.
Speaker B:Because the minute you have a massive sporting competition or Brazil or your football team or the, you know, Copa Libertador, whatever, everyone forgets about it.
Speaker A:Actually, that's very true.
Speaker A:I forget his name.
Speaker A:But the Brazilian dictator who basically would create Brazil's identity was football.
Speaker A:It's like, oh, let's take football and make it, or, you know, that make that part of our identity as a country.
Speaker A:I mean, in a way, from that, Saudi is now making, particularly boxing, it would seem, part of its identity, isn't it?
Speaker B:Almost exactly.
Speaker B:They're trying to, you know, diversify.
Speaker B:They're looking for a new identity in a world that is very complicated and in a world that people expect you to shape your identity to whatever the current trends are.
Speaker B:And I simultaneously admire them because they are trying to diversify.
Speaker B:They're trying to move away from oil, they're trying to open themselves culturally, economically, politically.
Speaker B:But it's not quite enough.
Speaker B:And you have to be passionate about it in a way that justifies it.
Speaker B:And you have to understand that throwing money at the problem is not the same as throwing solution at it.
Speaker B:Money is not necessarily always the solution.
Speaker B:Let me give you an example.
Speaker B:It's just how we consume sports.
Speaker B:How do you.
Speaker B:Do you have a football team that you support?
Speaker A:I don't.
Speaker B:Do you have any sport that you like?
Speaker A:One of the only sports I watch at all is boxing.
Speaker B:It's boxing.
Speaker B:Okay, very good.
Speaker B:How do you like to enjoy your boxing at home with the pay per view on a Saturday night, on your own with a beer or a watch, or do you like to go to the arena?
Speaker A:Well, I mean, I'd like to go to arena.
Speaker A:I never have any time.
Speaker A:I watch it on my own when I get a second.
Speaker A:I mean, I could watch it with friends.
Speaker A:I'm just not in that stage of my life.
Speaker A:You know, I've got young kids.
Speaker A:It'd be too much to go and meet up with someone to do it.
Speaker A:So I'm just interested in watching it technically.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:So even if that is hard for you, just to go to the pub with your friends because you have two kids, because you have a job, because you have responsibilities, that is hard for you to consume sport in that way.
Speaker B:So for you, it's very convenient to just pay the £24 pay per view, and then you watch your favorite boxing match with the highlights, the production, whatever.
Speaker B:So that's how most people enjoy their sports, in a way that's convenient in the way that fits with their, you know, social life, with their geography.
Speaker B:But think about it now, if there's a World cup, and then maybe every four years you realize a dream to go to a World cup in a country that you're actually genuinely interested in, like Brazil or the U.S. i mean, that would be a vibe.
Speaker B:Or Japan, that would be really interesting, you know, but then to make.
Speaker B:To make it such an expensive and luxurious exercise every time.
Speaker B:There's just no return on investment because most people can't afford.
Speaker B:Most people who enjoy sports can't afford to enjoy sports at that level and in that manner that every time they have to be taking an expensive flight, paying for an expensive hotel, taking time off work, going to Saudi Arabia, where it's going to be a little bit tricky, you know, to drink or whatever, to do certain things that the typical British football or boxing fan is going to want to get up to on a night out.
Speaker B:You know, no one's got time for that.
Speaker B:Who's got time for that and who's got the money for that?
Speaker B:So that's when I say it was a little bit ill thought out.
Speaker A:Oh, because that's what they really wanted people to do to come to Saudi.
Speaker B:Well, yes.
Speaker A:You know, is it not just enough to say, see it on the TV all the time, Riyadh, and you know, sort of get susceptible to that?
Speaker B:No, because again, one of the biggest revenues for boxing is still pay per view income from one of the biggest sports and entertainment market in the world, the United States of America.
Speaker B:So even if it's pay per view and you can watch it on demand later, it's more exciting to watch it live as it happens.
Speaker B:But because it's in Riyadh, it's a completely different time zone.
Speaker B:People are not going to be awake at that time or they're going to be at work or, you know, they're not going to be quite onto it.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's tricky, the time zone.
Speaker B:A little bit tricky, the time, which.
Speaker A:Is why they're doing it late at.
Speaker B:Night is why they're doing it quite late at night or a little bit earlier, you know, to match up with American pay per view audiences, which it's still the bread and butter of, you know, boxing revenue.
Speaker A:Yeah, okay, but.
Speaker A:Okay, so they're matching it for that.
Speaker A:It's all about the American market for that.
Speaker A:The bit that they feel they haven't thought through is that people are.
Speaker A:For people to go to Saudi.
Speaker A:You're absolutely right.
Speaker A:I mean, you know, I'm terrified of going to Saudi.
Speaker A:I'm pretty sure they have me locked up within an hour with some of my chat.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:I'll be deported at the airport probably, you know, considering my.
Speaker A:I mean, it's for sure, you know, I'd be in a cafe chatting some nonsense and I'm sure I get arrested.
Speaker A:But the fights are still full.
Speaker A:People are going to Saudi to an extent Isn't it?
Speaker A:Are they not full?
Speaker A:Is it all a bit empty at the back?
Speaker B:It's a little bit empty at the back.
Speaker A:It's a little bit empty at the back.
Speaker B:But with a good camera work you can make it look like it's super busy and it's like popping.
Speaker A:Well, if they, if they just handed out tickets, they've got all this money.
Speaker A:Why don't they just make it free?
Speaker B:Oh, because again they have all this money, they don't care if it's empty or not.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:They should just say the fight's free.
Speaker A:Like you know, if you can get here.
Speaker B:Indeed.
Speaker B:But then you're pro like, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, you have to have rate integrity.
Speaker B:You know, for example, the most expensive hotels in the world, they could be having empty rooms but they're not going to go lower below a certain price because you have to have some rate integrity.
Speaker B:And they're trying to strike the balance between the two things.
Speaker B:But I think their understanding of the economic reality of the countries that consume football and the average sport fan didn't really match up with their business model.
Speaker A:Now you're an economist who got into tax, but when I listen to you, it sounds much more like you're quite into the business side.
Speaker A:You know, the sort of almost the advice of doing business or how they, you know, you know, sports is a complicated world entertainment market, you know, your husband's in the music world.
Speaker A:Are you quite interested and do you provide quite a lot of business advice?
Speaker A:Sort of strategic.
Speaker A:This is almost strategic advice about.
Speaker A:I don't know whether you should or shouldn't fight in Saudi or whatever.
Speaker A:The question is, is that something you get into a lot as well?
Speaker B:Yes, because I'm not just an accountant, I am an economist.
Speaker B:So I understand both the macro and the microeconomic aspects of, of those transactions.
Speaker B:As in I understand how the ins and outs of the cash flows works for the country that's trying to put it in sports funding, building stadiums, all the rest of it and how it works at the micro level, as in the people who are buying tickets, who are consuming sports and how it's being sold and pay per view incomes and all the rest of it.
Speaker B:So yes, I do benefit from having the economic understanding.
Speaker B:I am very interested in world affairs.
Speaker B:So I have the good understanding of how economic policy, results of elections will affect creative industries and sports industries and obviously you know, the consumer as well, consumer behavior.
Speaker A:So what, you know, on a day to day at the moment is it you're acting, you know, for various people and Therefore, using your base of tax and economics to provide them good advice.
Speaker A:Is that what takes up all your time, or are there other things you're doing or.
Speaker B:No, most of my time is still taken up with number crunching and compliance and the advisory side of things.
Speaker B:So we have a team.
Speaker B:The team's going to go to the US for a spell.
Speaker B:Or you have an actor, a musician, an actor, a director, a boxer, an MMA fighter, a tech entrepreneur.
Speaker B:They're all going to go over to the us.
Speaker B:So we do both.
Speaker B:The advisory level, as in how to navigate that insertion into either the US or going to Saudi and dealing with the consequences when you come back and have to file your UK tax return, then we help with all of that.
Speaker B:But having that wider overview and economic understanding, it really does help a lot.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's an interesting point in my own head.
Speaker A:I slightly separate them as in this economics, there's tax and how that works, but then there's a sort of commercial understanding that industry and how it's plugged together.
Speaker A:Now, there's an aspect of which economics might look into some of that, but there's a sort of.
Speaker A:There's plenty of people I know are brilliant at making money, as I'm sure you do, who know nothing about economics and nothing really about tax.
Speaker A:And it's just their ability to understand how to make money or how to strategize and industry.
Speaker A:It's almost.
Speaker A:It's almost maybe like, I think, a lot of the greatest, most successful entrepreneurs, if you really look at them, they're marketing geniuses, you know, they really understand what people want and how to give it to them.
Speaker A:Do you know?
Speaker B:And ultimately the economy is made up of people.
Speaker A:Yeah, sure.
Speaker A:You studied it for a long time, did you?
Speaker A:I mean, there's lots of styles of economics, there's lots of you.
Speaker A:You could have different attitudes towards different people.
Speaker B:There's a lot of economic policy, economic schools of thinking, and they are quite contradicting.
Speaker B:And there is a joke that says that economics is the subject where two people can win a Nobel Prize for saying completely different and opposite things.
Speaker B:So, yes, basically that understanding does help.
Speaker B:Accountancy is quite static.
Speaker B:So the tax laws are xyz.
Speaker B:This is the percentage rates you're going to have to pay.
Speaker B:This is what you can deduct, this is what you can't deduct.
Speaker B:And it's basically a snapshot of historically what happened.
Speaker B:So it's quite static, but economics is a little bit more dynamic, it's a little bit more fluid.
Speaker B:You have to understand the trends, the market trends as and when they happen.
Speaker B:So I think I was lucky that having studied economics before becoming an accountant was quite helpful because then it gave me a really good and sound commercial judgment to understand and tell my clients, this is stupid, don't do this.
Speaker A:No, I think it's a great combo.
Speaker A:I've met many economists and I sit there sometimes listening and thinking.
Speaker A:I wish you understood tax better because you don't really understand how this.
Speaker B:A lot of people don't understand tax.
Speaker B:You know, if you think about tax as well, from an economist's point of view, you know, what is tax?
Speaker B:Tax is bas the government giving you either a negative or positive incentive for certain behaviors.
Speaker B:They're trying to reward you for good behavior and penalize you for bad behavior.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, I mean, there's absolutely, there's certainly the, you know, it's a bit like people get very excited about tax avoidance.
Speaker A:Oh, you know, there's 30 billion a year locks in tax avoidance.
Speaker A:And I'm like, well, let me name tax avoidance.
Speaker A:Putting money in a pension scheme, investing in a risky business.
Speaker A:You know, when you make the list, it doesn't sound that bad.
Speaker A:Tax avoidance sounds terrible, but it's become.
Speaker A:It's been weaponized mostly by the revenue.
Speaker A:Did it.
Speaker A:You know, they made tax avoidance somehow disgusting.
Speaker A:But actually we run through what the.
Speaker A:Oh, I just can't believe people are using these reliefs.
Speaker A:It's like they're released because they were trying to encourage that behavior.
Speaker B:Encourage that behavior.
Speaker A:Encourage people to do that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Save up for a rainy day.
Speaker B:Have a pension, you know, pay, buy a house, get a mortgage.
Speaker A:You said ultimately all these entertainers are all going to go to the U.S. is that the reality?
Speaker A:They all end.
Speaker A:I mean, U.S. is always the, you know, the golden ticket.
Speaker A:Everybody always heads there.
Speaker B:Well, the US historically has always been the biggest sports and entertainment market in the world.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, also just through the sheer size of people and is social context as well.
Speaker B:For example, women are allowed to enjoy sports and women are allowed to practice sports.
Speaker B:And people are authorized and able to watch women performing sports in whatever skimpy outfits.
Speaker A:They're Unlike Saudi.
Speaker B:Unlike Saudi.
Speaker B:So, you know, there was tennis, women.
Speaker A:They're missing out, by the way.
Speaker B:They're basically missing out.
Speaker A:I mean, it's not the population, you.
Speaker B:Know, I mean, it's 50 more workforce.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, you know, 50 more revenue opportunities and you're missing out on that.
Speaker B:So just on absolute terms, without getting into the social or the cultural norms or the in and out, it's Just money on the table that they're not picking up.
Speaker A:What is it really passionate about then?
Speaker A:Within all of this, you're acting for these sort of, you know, high end athletes and people.
Speaker A:You're, it's cross border, you know, what, what really gets you up every day?
Speaker B:I hate getting ripped off.
Speaker B:I hate paying for the same thing twice.
Speaker B:And I hate it when that happens to my clients and the people that I care about and the people that I admire and the people that I know, they're working really hard to try and make something of themselves, just like I am, just like everybody else is.
Speaker A:But being ripped off, you're a tax person, so you can try and avoid being.
Speaker A:Well, you can try and ensure you arrange your affairs in a way that is efficient for taxation.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:So you don't get ripped off by this government, by that government, by, by dodgy advisors, by poor planning, by a poor manager, a poor agent, or just bad bookkeeping.
Speaker B:Just keep track of it.
Speaker A:About bad bookkeeping.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's the core of everything.
Speaker A:But it's not so much, I mean.
Speaker A:Well, let me ask this question.
Speaker A:What do you think about HMRC and how it conducts its affairs these days?
Speaker B:Shameful.
Speaker B:Yeah, absolutely shameful.
Speaker B:So again, human beings respond to incentives.
Speaker B:We are not being incentivized to do well, we're being penalized for doing well.
Speaker B:Everyone is being penalized for doing well.
Speaker B:And you're expecting a service from HMRC which should be.
Speaker B:Obviously the primary objective is to collect revenue for the government, but they should also educate as they should also facilitate that collection of tax from the tax base themselves.
Speaker B:And they're not doing that.
Speaker B:You call HMRC for whatever reason and they treat you like an inconvenience, they treat you like a criminal for having the audacity of calling them to ask a question or pointing out something that they've done that is wrong or just getting them to actually do their job.
Speaker B:You send deteriorated.
Speaker A:It's very much deteriorated.
Speaker A:And I think we obviously want to say before, as two professional advisors who don't particularly want to have a hard time from hmrc.
Speaker A:Look, there's lots of lovely people still in hmrc, but the culture, you, you talk to people who've, you know, sometimes we interview people from who used to be at hmrc.
Speaker A:You talk to anyone who was there for a long time or's left, it has changed massively.
Speaker A:You know, and if you talk to someone who's done 30 years there, they'll say it's really sad what's happened.
Speaker A:You know, I remember Someone saying to me the other day, you know, 20 years ago, we used to, to go out to businesses, have a much better relationship, try and help them with stuff, and it's just, it's all gone.
Speaker A:We don't have time for any of that anymore.
Speaker A:I think Covid was an interesting thing that happened, that I don't think they could work from home and they were all sent to work from home and this enormous backlog build up.
Speaker A:Yeah, but some of what you said there is political, as in people are being punished for doing well.
Speaker A:But that is the politics we're in, the politics of envy.
Speaker A:This sort of obsession with everything being fair or something.
Speaker A:You know, it's sort of like, like, I mean, I was just talking to a friend about this earlier.
Speaker A:It's so simple.
Speaker A:It's like you look at someone who's not earning very much and they're probably putting two, three thousand pounds a year into the tax system, including their council tax, including the vat.
Speaker A:You know, it could be a pretty small number.
Speaker A:And yet they're taking masses out.
Speaker A:And then you look at the rich person who's putting in an enormous amount, 50% of everything they go is going into the pot.
Speaker A:And then that poor person's been wound up to say, the problem with this country is that rich person is still not paying enough.
Speaker A:You know, there's something so wrong in this circle.
Speaker A:What do you feel about it?
Speaker B:I feel this is something that we're being conditioned to think precisely so that we don't get given the opportunity of going forward.
Speaker A:What is it we're being conditioned to think?
Speaker B:Let's think about it this way.
Speaker B:So there's the rich person that's making a ton of money that you described and spending 50% of their revenue into the tax pot.
Speaker B:They are net contributors, basically.
Speaker B:They're contributing more that they're taking out.
Speaker B:And then there's the poorer person who's not contributing as much.
Speaker B:But they are relying on public services that is taking out a lot more than they are putting in.
Speaker A:Probably using more public services often because they're using the schooling, they're using the.
Speaker B:Health care, they're using the school and they're using the healthcare.
Speaker B:And that's fine because then that is redistribution of wealth to an extent so as to give people the opportunity to go to school, to do something for themselves, to be healthy.
Speaker B:Because, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker A:I want a society like that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You know, a healthy nation is a wealthy nation, you know, but then what happens is they make the poor person resent the rich person.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Why, why, why do they do that?
Speaker B:Is the politics of envy.
Speaker B:Because then, you know, and then they make it.
Speaker B:And it's just such a weird thing because it happens the other way around as well.
Speaker B:Like you just can't win.
Speaker B:Being poor is treated like a character flaw, is treated like a crime, similar to being rich.
Speaker B:You know, when you're rich, that is also treated as a character flaw.
Speaker B:Nobody thinks actually that person saw a gap in the market, or that person has a talent for this, that and the other, you know, or that person was provid service that everybody wanted a piece of, you know, so you just can't win because both ends of the spectrum are treated as a character flaw and as if you were a criminal.
Speaker B:So that gives the poor person no incentive to be rich.
Speaker B:Because if you think about it, why would I, you know, be someone who makes a ton of money when I do?
Speaker B:Because when I do, I am going to be treated like a criminal.
Speaker B:I'm going to be vilified and society is going to resent me, you know, and whereas we should be happy for people, if you think about the world, you know, as it is, where we are in the history of humanity, eventually everyone is going to have a chance, you know, of making wealth.
Speaker B:No one has started from the same place.
Speaker B:Equity is a joke.
Speaker B:Equity doesn't exist, you know, the way that we think everyone should have not only the same opportunities, but the same outcomes.
Speaker A:Bullshit.
Speaker A:I mean, my sister just died with two kids.
Speaker A:Her kids will never have the same equity they would have had if she was alive.
Speaker A:And there's nothing society can do about that.
Speaker B:There's nothing society can do about that.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:I mean, it's interesting what you said.
Speaker A:I actually find, and partly.
Speaker A:Cause I spend a lot of my life in the world of hip hop.
Speaker A:But you can't criticize the poor.
Speaker A:It's absolutely socially acceptable to criticize the rich.
Speaker A:So part of the narrative at the moment, I'm always like, switch it around.
Speaker A:I couldn't say, oh, it's those bloody rich people and the rich, rich, rich.
Speaker A:And it's a bit like when they.
Speaker A:This whole labor thing, I find the semantics of it ever since they said we won't touch workers, you know, I made this joke, but, you know, a client came in, like when that was going on and said, sort of slumped down the table, say, andy, I left school.
Speaker A:I was 16.
Speaker A:My dad died when I was 22.
Speaker A:All I've done is work.
Speaker A:But apparently I'm not a worker, so what am I?
Speaker A:And I'M like, well, you're an aristocrat, you know, apparently, you know, you should be swanning around, you know, and that whole narrative's toxic.
Speaker A:I mean, I don't know whether you aware of Gary Stevenson and what he's his sort of, you know what he's sort of going around because he's really fueling this fire of like, the problem is those rich people, you know, And I don't think you could.
Speaker A:When you say it's work bad to be both, it's bad to be poor, because it's just shit to be poor.
Speaker B:Oh, it sucks.
Speaker A:I mean, actually, there's shit things about being rich too, but let's not compare them.
Speaker A:I'm not sitting compare.
Speaker A:I'm just saying everything is, you know, it's not all green, grass is greener.
Speaker A:But you cannot say what you say about rich people, about poor people.
Speaker A:People would go insane at you.
Speaker A:But my point would be, and I'm utterly agreeing with you, is we cannot have these prejudices full stop.
Speaker A:You can't.
Speaker B:Any prejudice.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:You can't start from a position of you're rich, so therefore you're a twat.
Speaker A:It's like.
Speaker A:Like what?
Speaker B:You can't do that about anything.
Speaker B:Because then if you think about it as well, I was born poor.
Speaker B:Did I choose it?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:I had no say on the matter whatsoever.
Speaker B:So why am I being held accountable for something that was not my choice whatsoever?
Speaker B:Like, do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:And then you start feeding people these lies about equity and about, you know, equality of outcome, equality of opportunity.
Speaker B:Let me give you an example.
Speaker B:You know, I grew up in our house.
Speaker B:There was five of us, five of my.
Speaker B:My, My parents.
Speaker B:Kids were living in the same house.
Speaker B:Growing up in the same house, same mom, same dad, same house, same food, same water, same schools and vastly different outcomes, even though we both, we all had the same start in life.
Speaker A:Did you do this?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:Of course.
Speaker B:Obviously I was the only girl as.
Speaker A:Well, so that's why.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:Growing up as the only girl in the house with five boys, it was like literally growing up in a pack of wolves.
Speaker A:So it's quite.
Speaker A:It's quite a position.
Speaker A:It's quite nice to have all that sort of, you know, protectionist.
Speaker A:It's like having a security team with you, you know.
Speaker B:It was the opposite.
Speaker B:Yeah, it was.
Speaker B:I was constantly under attack over there.
Speaker B:So that's why I had to learn how to be a little bit feisty and fight my weight.
Speaker B:But basically, that's what I'm saying.
Speaker B:Same mom, same dad, same food, same water, vastly different outcomes.
Speaker B:So you can't really say that equality of opportunity equals equality of outcome.
Speaker B:It's never going to happen.
Speaker B:You know, we have different interests, we had different personalities, we had different abilities, work ethics and so on and so forth.
Speaker B:So you can't really say that equality of outcome is a thing.
Speaker A:How important do you think the work ethic is in the outcome?
Speaker A:You know, because a lot of the principle we hang that gets criticized.
Speaker A:In fact, the new economist advisor to Rachel Reeves, apparently their thing is all about like, hard work is irrelevant to success or something.
Speaker A:You know, I was being explained journey today.
Speaker A:I'm getting it wrong, I'm sure, but you know, I was brought up that hard work really, really matters, you know, and that, that won't, it doesn't guarantee anything.
Speaker A:But if you're not working hard, it will guarantee one thing.
Speaker A:You know, it's like, it's like working hard doesn't guarantee you're going to be rich or successful, but if you're not trying hard or whatever you're going to do, you're not going to move forward.
Speaker B:Look, it's very simple.
Speaker B:If you do nothing, nothing happens.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:If you do something, something might happen happen.
Speaker B:It's that simple.
Speaker B:So you might do something great and then something great happens.
Speaker B:But if you do nothing, I can guarantee you nothing will happen.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's that simple.
Speaker A:You know, the other thing is, it's funny when we talk about, you said equality is quite.
Speaker A:People get very worked up that we're obsessed in this country with fairness.
Speaker A:And we started to talk about it a little bit because I'm with you, I just think if you try and make everything fair, it's, it's, it's a rounding to nothing.
Speaker A:So let's say everyone in the country becomes average.
Speaker A:Now, as a country, how do we do.
Speaker A:The point being is we need exceptionalism, we need outliers, we need highly educated, highly intelligent people, you know, brilliant sports entertainers, whatever.
Speaker A:People who are at the absolute edge of the game.
Speaker A:And that lifts, lifts the country allows the country to have the best science, the best this and the best whatever.
Speaker A:So there's a really interesting thing about our race to average thinking.
Speaker A:That's fairness.
Speaker A:But actually our race to average is our way to failure as a country.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:You're rewarding mediocrity, basically.
Speaker B:So if you give everyone the same outcome for varying amounts of effort, you are literally just rewarding mediocrity.
Speaker A:And does it feel like, I mean, you've, you've lived in different countries.
Speaker A:Does it feel like we have a problem with that at the moment?
Speaker B:I feel we definitely have a huge problem with that at the moment.
Speaker B:So I left Brazil for various reasons, but one of them is as a woman, as a girl, I was 18 years old.
Speaker B:Going out at night was unsafe.
Speaker B:Going to a cash point after 6 o' clock in the evening was unsafe.
Speaker B:You couldn't walk in the streets on your own.
Speaker B:It was really unsafe.
Speaker B:So that was not a problem in Europe, at least not at the time that I moved here.
Speaker B:And now a lot of the problems that I personally ran away from, the social problems that I ran away from in Brazil, I'm starting to see them happening here in England and in Europe in general.
Speaker B:And a lot of the economic policies who are very misguided, who are completely financially illiterate and simply don't work, they're being applied here.
Speaker B:And we have, we learned as a lesson in Brazil that they don't work.
Speaker B:That's the reason why Brazil and Latin American countries fell behind, because they all fell for the scourge of socialism, which doesn't really work.
Speaker B:And we are proof of that.
Speaker B:But then here in the UK now, we believe that these policies should be the ones that we should be abiding to and the ones that we should be applying in this country.
Speaker B:And it really doesn't work as we're seeing.
Speaker B:And there's even a term for that, it's called the Latin Americanization of the British economy.
Speaker B:We're going to end up like Argentina quite soon.
Speaker B:We are going to have.
Speaker B:Have an IMF bailout.
Speaker B:Our credit rating internationally is going to go down and then what's going to happen?
Speaker A:The funny thing is Britain's been battling this dual identity of socialism and capitalism for a long time.
Speaker A:We've had the IMF bailout before, same circumstances in terms of spend and tax.
Speaker A:Tax your way out of your.
Speaker A:It doesn't work.
Speaker A:It just doesn't work.
Speaker A:And I mean, I know you're vocal on it, but I'm with you again, it's a bit like people are.
Speaker A:Well, they're not patriotic.
Speaker A:Let them leave.
Speaker A:I'm like, well, first of, are they British?
Speaker B:Oh, they are.
Speaker B:They are leaving.
Speaker A:Yeah, I know, yeah.
Speaker A:But each in.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:They don't all need to leave.
Speaker A:We only need 20% of them to leave and that's a massive impact.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker A:What are you seeing from your client base?
Speaker A:Of what?
Speaker A:If you were saying I had.
Speaker A:Let's just say you have 100 clients.
Speaker A:What percentage of, you know, Them, do you think who are all high performers are going, I'm out of here 100%.
Speaker A:100%.
Speaker A:Unless they've got family reasons or something.
Speaker B:No, they would still go.
Speaker B:They're only not leaving because, you know, they're still on maneuvers.
Speaker B:But every single one of my clients is currently on maneuvers.
Speaker B:If it stays the way it is, they will not stay in this country.
Speaker A:And is it the tax rate?
Speaker A:Is it the atmosphere?
Speaker A:What are the real triggers?
Speaker B:I would say is the atmosphere because historically we were actually paying quite a lot of tax.
Speaker B:You know, prior to even the.
Speaker B: e subprime mortgage crisis in: Speaker A:Certainly as individuals, isn't it?
Speaker A:As individuals, companies had quite low tax, but individuals were.
Speaker B:Companies had low tax, but individuals had high tax, which is understandable.
Speaker B:Is, you know, a smaller country with, you know, universal health care and a lot of other public services.
Speaker B:So is a very expensive country that needs to collect its revenue from a much smaller taxpayer.
Speaker B:So it's understandable that we were all paying high taxes.
Speaker B:It's understandable that people in Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland, they pay high taxes because again, they want to provide them with a lot of public services, but they need to collect the revenue for the public services from a much smaller tax base.
Speaker B:So of course it follows that we are going to pay more tax than they do in America or other countries.
Speaker A:I always get irritated with the Scandinavian thing because it's like they're tiny little countries relative to us.
Speaker A:It's sort of comparing apples and orange.
Speaker A:But also that's their culture.
Speaker A:That's where they come from.
Speaker A:Swede think their governments are brilliant.
Speaker A:Britain hasn't thought their government's good in long time.
Speaker A:They love them.
Speaker A:They think they're the most, you know, they do everything.
Speaker A:They've got like a 90% approval rate of their government.
Speaker A:I mean, that hasn't happened in Britain ever.
Speaker B:So going back to your question, you know, it's not necessarily just a financial reason.
Speaker B:Is the environment as well and the mentality, the vibe is just off.
Speaker B:You have to remember as well, Britain economically hasn't done quite great in the last few years.
Speaker B:So the pound has been considerably devalued.
Speaker B:So that means that our cost of living is a lot more expensive than it used to be.
Speaker B:So even if we were paying a lot of tax previously because the pound was a lot stronger then, we could import products and services and foods from other countries and that kept the cost of living a lot more accessible.
Speaker B:And you still have a little bit of money left at the end of the month to play A little bit, right?
Speaker A:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker B:But we don't have that anymore.
Speaker B:So not only we're paying a lot more tax.
Speaker B:The better you do, the more tax you have to pay, and then you still get vilified for it.
Speaker B:So it's like, oh, my God, I started as a poor person, I worked my backside off, and I'm finally making some money and I'm being vilified for it.
Speaker B:I am being told that I am.
Speaker B:The problem with this country, the fact that I worked hard and now I'm making some money that hopefully will help me look after my family, is a crime, and I'm being treated as a criminal for that.
Speaker B:And then not just that, you pay the tax money and what do you get back for it?
Speaker A:Well, exactly a mix.
Speaker B:So is a vibe.
Speaker B:So, you know, so you're making all of this money, you paying for a lot of services that you're not receiving.
Speaker B:You're just basically being ripped off, and then you're being vilified for wanting something for your money.
Speaker B:You know, and human beings, they need something more in life than to just work and pay taxes.
Speaker B:And that's at all economic levels.
Speaker B:If you're a poor person, you just don't want to live to wake up in the morning, work, get a job, you know, pay your bills, pay tax, rinse and repeat.
Speaker B:You want to be able to live as well.
Speaker B:And even if you're rich nowadays, that is not happening anymore.
Speaker B:Because the more money you make, it doesn't mean any financial freedom.
Speaker B:It doesn't mean that you're going to have the opportunity to build wealth or even just build protection.
Speaker B:Who do you know nowadays that's got a pension?
Speaker B:It's almost impossible to save for it.
Speaker A:Well, let's go a little further there, because I find it fascinating how, and I use him as a guy, we had him on this pod and stuff, and he's become an enormous character.
Speaker A:You're aware of Gary Stevenson.
Speaker A:He wrote a book and stuff.
Speaker A:Go check him out.
Speaker A:But basically his thing is, you know, tax wealth, not work.
Speaker A:He's pushing for the wealth tax.
Speaker A:I mean, he's passionate and, you know, there's some of his points I don't disagree with completely, but he really fuels this fire.
Speaker A:And what I find fascinating when I see his YouTubes and stuff, where, frankly, he talks a lot of bollocks because he doesn't understand tax and various things.
Speaker A:It's the comment, it's that everybody, no matter who debates with this person.
Speaker A:Everybody buys into his thing because they want to hear it.
Speaker A:He's a poor guy from nothing.
Speaker A:He's saying inequality getting work, and he's saying the reason inequality is getting worked is the rich people accumulating wealth and they're not being taxed on it.
Speaker A:And actually, I mean, full disclosure, I have very little wealth, but I have a good income.
Speaker A:So he wants to tax wealth, not work well, suit me very nicely.
Speaker A:So I want.
Speaker B:How do you build wealth?
Speaker A:Yeah, well, there's so many issues with it.
Speaker A:You know, I find it.
Speaker A:It's so frustrating because the truth is on.
Speaker A:The real truth is uncomfortable for people.
Speaker A:So I think they just want to hear this.
Speaker A:But I mean, he is what.
Speaker A:I mean, he's enormous now.
Speaker A:I mean, he has.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:He's the biggest voice other than reform out there at the moment.
Speaker A:And, you know, he could become a political leader.
Speaker A:That's what people keep talking to him about.
Speaker A:But I just, I get stumped looking at it, that no one can see through that.
Speaker A:This doesn't make any sense, you know.
Speaker A:Do you find it frustrating?
Speaker B:You look, I find it quite frustrating.
Speaker B:And that all goes back to financial illiteracy, and that's just very unfortunate.
Speaker B:If people understood basic maths, they would understand that the math doesn't check out.
Speaker B:Whatever policies Rachel Reeves is coming up with or whatever Gary Stevenson is saying, sure, on principle, he might say some things that make sense, but ultimately the maths has to check out.
Speaker B:And that's what economics is.
Speaker B:You set out a theory and then you have to test it mathematically to see if it holds.
Speaker B:Right now, anyone can expel any theory.
Speaker B:We can say whatever we want.
Speaker B:We can formulate whatever theory you want that life is X, Y, Z.
Speaker B:But the math doesn't check out.
Speaker B:No one now has the responsibility to prove it mathematically, whether something works or not.
Speaker B:And even if they were proving it, most people don't understand maths because maths is hard.
Speaker B:So they wouldn't know either way.
Speaker B:If you're explaining, look, here's the maths.
Speaker B:It checks out.
Speaker B:They're not.
Speaker B:They don't know what they're looking at.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So, you know, you just can't.
Speaker B:It's like arguing with a pigeon.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Do you see it.
Speaker A:Do you see it changing at all?
Speaker A:I mean, will the government get in?
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:If you looked at reforms, tax, you know, if they got in.
Speaker A:Quite interesting to read a bunch of it.
Speaker A:I'm not.
Speaker A:I'm not that bothered about, you know, I Mean, it's a bit like the mini budget, the Liz Truss budget.
Speaker A:You go, and look what she did.
Speaker A:I mean, the worst executed plan in history.
Speaker A:But, you know, there was nothing wrong with a tax plan.
Speaker A:It's actually exactly what you should probably do, you know, lower everything a little bit, free it up.
Speaker A:It's just you got to stand up and say, look, I'm going to make these changes.
Speaker A:It might get worse for a year or two, but then things are going to start flying and the entrepreneurs are all going to come back here again.
Speaker A:They will come back is the other thing.
Speaker A:If you create the right environment for.
Speaker B:Them, they will come back.
Speaker B:But, you know, the markets, they wanted instant gratification.
Speaker B:And it's something that is an economic and logical fallacy that everybody falls for every single time, all the time.
Speaker B:So let me give you an example.
Speaker B:You can have a win right now, let's say five pounds.
Speaker B:I can give you five pounds right now, or you can wait an hour and I'll give you £10.
Speaker B:Most people don't have the fortitude to wait that extra hour for an extra fiver, you know, Most people want that win right now.
Speaker B:And yes, her plan theoretically made sense, but because whoever, whatever, wanted their wins then and now, nobody was willing or prepared to suck it up for a little bit, you know, to see the results afterwards.
Speaker B:Also, there's lack of understanding economic policy.
Speaker B:The results of it, they don't happen overnight.
Speaker B:Good economic policy for you to be seeing, feeling and, you know, harvesting the benefits of it.
Speaker B:It takes a good five years, and that's on a good day.
Speaker A:And when your clients look overseas, because this is where I get stuck, so many talented people I work with want to leave.
Speaker A:But when, when you then go, okay, where are you going to go?
Speaker A:Tricky.
Speaker B:It's a very tricky question.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Obviously a lot of people have cultural, emotional, family ties to this country.
Speaker B:You know, we like as well some of the values that, that we hold dear here in the uk, such as democracy, feminism, etc.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think, yeah, you look overseas and the world becomes quite a small place quite quickly, isn't it?
Speaker A:So they've got their cultural ties here.
Speaker B:It does.
Speaker B:Cultural ties, but simultaneously, the world is getting a little bit smaller, you know, and if you get the kind of person who has enough money, you know, you, you can just come and go as you please anyway.
Speaker A:But it is, I mean, America's the bright lights of America.
Speaker A:Although there's loads of people from America coming here because of Trump, you know.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:They're not coming here for economic Reasons, I can guarantee you that it's mostly social reasons is a little bit of political hysteria and saying, oh, my God, I just can't agree with what Trump is doing, whatever, so I have to leave.
Speaker B:Well, I think that's a little bit cynical because, you know, it just.
Speaker B:It doesn't affect you anyway, and that's why you left and you had the luxury of leaving.
Speaker B:So how are you contributing or, you know, or making it better?
Speaker B:It's virtuous signaling, if you think about it.
Speaker A:Yes, true.
Speaker B:You know, because, like, okay, you left, but you left a lot of people behind who are still going to be susceptible to the consequences of the policies and the ideologies that you disagree with.
Speaker B:What are you doing to help them?
Speaker B:You're just covering your own.
Speaker A:I'm sort of with you.
Speaker A:I'm sort of surprised when they move a bit because of, you know, a president that might not be there in a couple of years.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:It's a huge decision.
Speaker B:Look, they probably ring fenced their wealth already anyway.
Speaker A:It's all taxed in America forever anyway.
Speaker B:It's taxed in America forever anyway.
Speaker B:And, like, at a much.
Speaker B:Actually, arguably far more favorable and generous rates than in the uk.
Speaker B:So they've already ring fenced it over there.
Speaker B:So it's all good.
Speaker A:It's almost like, though, we need to shift and maybe every.
Speaker A:It's like there's a small evolution needed in this country.
Speaker A:You know, it's almost you need the revolution, isn't it?
Speaker A:Because.
Speaker A:Because there's something in us which is catching us in a loop, you know?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:We don't like talking about money, but by the way, nobody likes talking about money except the Americans.
Speaker A:You know, if you speak to most cultures, they're very uncomfortable with talking about money, but we do have tall Poppy syndrome here.
Speaker A:We like the little guy.
Speaker A:Poor him.
Speaker A:Let's get him up.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Don't let him be too big.
Speaker A:Chop him down.
Speaker A:So there's something.
Speaker A:And you said, you know, we can't keep punishing superstars for following their dreams.
Speaker A:You know, that we struggle with following our dreams in this country, and then when people do, we don't like it because we didn't.
Speaker A:You know, there's something.
Speaker A:There's something that needs to change.
Speaker B:Effy?
Speaker B:Definitely.
Speaker B:I think the country needs collective cognitive behavioral therapy about money.
Speaker B:You know, not talking about money only benefits the people with capital, the people who are actually paying the wages.
Speaker B:I think it should be all out in the open, because if you don't talk about something it becomes taboo.
Speaker B:And if you don't talk about how much you're getting paid and how it's not enough, then it becomes taboo.
Speaker B:You know, if you don't talk about how much tax you paid or saved, then it becomes taboo.
Speaker B:For example, Angela Rayner is the most immediate example.
Speaker B:Perhaps the things that, the methods that she chose to avoid stamp duty, land tax are perfectly legal and acceptable, but because the very every party that she's the deputy leader of made it such a taboo to go for legal tax avoidance and try to save money wherever you can and benefit from tax laws that she didn't write herself then became taboo.
Speaker B:And now her role is at risk.
Speaker A:She should have learned from Richie Sunak's wife, which I don't know about you, I struggle with, because there isn't a tax advisor in the country who wouldn't be called negligent for advising Richie Sunak's wife to tick the remittance box back in the day.
Speaker A:But it was politically stupid and actually, you know, to have that lesson.
Speaker A:And then an Angela Raina gets some funky advice from a clever accountant.
Speaker A:Funky, not.
Speaker A:It's illegal.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:As you say, it's legal.
Speaker A:They just played the game a little bit.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:But precisely because they made such taboo about it, then that's why it reflected negatively back on her, sort of.
Speaker B:Do you understand?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So because they made it such taboo to talk about it that, that, you know, it, it blew back in her face.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, she's sort of saying, oh, it's a mistake.
Speaker A:And almost I broke, you know, almost I broke the law.
Speaker A:I mean, to be honest, I'm.
Speaker A:I've.
Speaker A:I don't know much about it, but what I have understood her about it for the last few years is she's got that chip on her shoulder about rich people again.
Speaker B:I think the worst thing about that situation is, I mean, that was technically insider trading, which don't really have laws in the UK when it concerns public figures.
Speaker A:Oh, interesting that she knows what's developing.
Speaker B:As she knows what's developing in terms of tax laws and in terms of time duty, land tax and all the rest of it.
Speaker B:That's insider trading and that's a really, really ugly thing.
Speaker A:I'm sure there must be a law against a politician benefiting off a change in law that they know about.
Speaker B:I bet that's interesting before the public actually does.
Speaker B:I was actually looking into it, but I don't think I saw one.
Speaker B:But if you look at it that way, it is insider trading.
Speaker B:So she knows what's coming and, and nobody else does, but she does.
Speaker B:So she had that advantage, that information that wasn't in the public domain yet, and then she went and used it to her advantage before other people could have the same advantage.
Speaker A:So what happens if all your clients leave?
Speaker A:Does that mean you leave?
Speaker A:Are you staying here?
Speaker B:It depends on where they go.
Speaker B:If the US I can cater for them and you know, we have a network as well of partners who are in the uae, partners who are in Brazil, in Spain, Portugal.
Speaker B:Goal.
Speaker B:So we're covered.
Speaker A:And what are your sort of long term goals, do you think?
Speaker B:As a professional?
Speaker B:I just want to help everyone to be flexible, to understand things and, you know, to make good and smart choices for themselves.
Speaker B:I don't necessarily want to work with the people who make the absolute most money in the world.
Speaker B:I want to work with the people who want to make something for themselves with what they've got.
Speaker B:Goal.
Speaker B:And now a quick word from our sponsor.
Speaker A:Business without is brought to you by Ori Clark.
Speaker A: ancial and legal advice since: Speaker A:You can find us@oriclark.com Ori is spelled O U r Y.
Speaker A:Before we press on, just a quick reminder to come say hi.
Speaker B:Hi.
Speaker A:On whatever social platform you like.
Speaker A:We're pretty much on all of them.
Speaker A:Just search for wblondon.
Speaker A:You know, we said in the intro, you know, your husband who's was in the ex drummer of the Noisettes, he had a bad experience.
Speaker A:Tell.
Speaker A:Tell us that story a little more.
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker B: and they had a hit single in: Speaker B:And I think the pressure got to them.
Speaker B:They couldn't really cope with it.
Speaker B:They couldn't really handle it.
Speaker B:And as a result, they seemed to have some sort of falling out or, you know, somebody was in a completely weird headspace and they decided, let's fire the drummer.
Speaker B:I mean, nobody respects drummers.
Speaker B:It's a big issue.
Speaker B:And they are the heart and soul of a band usually.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So they were operating as a partnership, but they didn't have a formal agreement at the time.
Speaker B:And what happened immediately after the fallout?
Speaker B:Everybody took the band side.
Speaker B:So they basically sidelined my husband and treated him as if he was never a part of the band to begin with and claimed that he had absolutely.
Speaker A:No rights whatsoever over the music that had been written.
Speaker B:So over the music, you know, all the, whatever money had been built and the record deals and the publishers and the songwriting and all the rest of it.
Speaker A:It's quite hard to do though, in a way, isn't it?
Speaker A:The way music laws sort of defined that, you know, the publishing would be on whoever, the credits, they effectively forged the ownership on, on the PRs, on the MCPs, on the publishing.
Speaker B:They didn't do that.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker B:They literally just stonewalled him.
Speaker B:Luckily, that had already been agreed previously when this, when the songs were registered.
Speaker B:But the touring revenue, you know, the, the record advances, the publishing advances, they were all sitting in the partners and they completely sidelined him from that.
Speaker B:They basically just cut him off.
Speaker B:So he wasn't getting his wages anymore, he wasn't getting access to the books, he wasn't getting access to the bank account and he was just, you know, he signed a record deal with record label, but apparently he was not part of the band anymore, even though he had signed that deal.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:And at the same time, the people who had been engaged as the band's accountants and the band's lawyers, they were actively working against him, they were conspiring against him.
Speaker B:So when the other two people in the band decided, let's get rid of him, you know, let's kick him out, they went and talked to the lawyer, who had a duty of care towards my husband as well, and they instructed the accountants as well not to give him any information.
Speaker B:Even though my husband, as a member of that partnership, he was paying their wages.
Speaker A:He kicked him out of the partnership at the same time.
Speaker A:They didn't have an agreement, but did they?
Speaker B:Yeah, they did kick him out of the partnership.
Speaker A:Does that not make them the lawyer now?
Speaker A:Not responsible to him, him, unbeknownst to.
Speaker B: ment, then it defaults to the: Speaker A:Ah, interesting.
Speaker A:It's always says, yeah, because we're an old school partnership, but obviously we have a partnership agreement and we do have an ability to remove people under circumstances.
Speaker A:But that's interesting.
Speaker A:In the original act, if one partner leaves without any documentation, the whole partnership.
Speaker B:The whole partnership, automatically.
Speaker A:Well, that's great for your position of attack really, isn't it?
Speaker A:Or whatever the word is, you know.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Or offensive strategy.
Speaker B:So they didn't seem to know that, which was obviously for a band is not surprising.
Speaker B:But the accountants should have known that and the lawyers should have known that as well.
Speaker B:Instead, the accountants at the time and the lawyers kept pushing the other two people who Stayed in the band to keep cutting Jamie out and not to respond to him and basically stonewall him for two whole years.
Speaker A:If the two people left at the table are saying, listen, you can't trust him, he's done bad, he's a bad person.
Speaker A:Leaves the profess like the question I'm.
Speaker B:Trying to ask 100%, yes, there was character assassination.
Speaker A:Character assassination.
Speaker A:Cause it's not.
Speaker A:The professional should do better and should know better and should know that they have a duty to reach out to him, to check what's being said, because they've got that duty of care, but they just get wrapped in with following their client's advice at the table.
Speaker A:Almost.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, which if you think about it, is completely idiotic because even if you are doing the character assassination of another person, even if said person did have whatever problems or was evil like the other two people in the band were saying that he was, it doesn't matter.
Speaker B: ack to the Partnership act of: Speaker B:And they should have known that instead of pushing them to dispute this to hell and back.
Speaker B:And the only people who really benefit from that were the lawyers.
Speaker A:There's a lesson in that.
Speaker A:I would say to anybody that if you are in a position where you could call it minority repression, which is another sort of form of laws, is don't just believe you don't have any power.
Speaker A:You know, don't.
Speaker A:I mean, unfortunately you have to get out the legal system.
Speaker A:But you know, if you, if you read, you got to read everything.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A:You've got to get your head around the technical problem.
Speaker A:But often you do have protections or often it's not what I'm telling you.
Speaker B:It's not the wild west out there.
Speaker B:It's not, you know, a dog eat dog world.
Speaker B:And if you think about it, the lawyers and the accountants, they fucked over the band as well, because the outcome would have been exactly the same had they settled in the very beginning of the two year long battle or at the very end.
Speaker B:The only difference is the lawyers collected two years worth of fees for denying the basic truth.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, it's all right if the bills are getting paid.
Speaker A:And then that sort of instilled a passion.
Speaker B:Yeah, I've always felt quite strongly about injustice.
Speaker B:It's like, look, you do whatever you want, you know, like you do you.
Speaker B:I don't care.
Speaker B:But you know, when it comes to certain things, just play by the book.
Speaker A:Did it get resolved with your husband?
Speaker B:Yes, it did get Resolved.
Speaker B:Okay, so we won again.
Speaker B: t defaults back to the act of: Speaker B:So that means that, that the partnership is dissolved and all of the assets have to be distributed.
Speaker B:Everything has to be wound up.
Speaker A:Do they not defend, you know, because you don't have to have a written partnership agreement.
Speaker A:It could be verbal.
Speaker A:Did they not defend on the basis.
Speaker A:Oh, but it was agreed that he would leave with nothing.
Speaker B:It's not formal.
Speaker B: refore standard falls back to: Speaker A:Oh, interesting.
Speaker A:But you could have a verbal.
Speaker A:Anyway, I'll get into the technicality of it.
Speaker A:I must go and well, I don't know the arguments puts both sides.
Speaker A:But they could have, they could have really, you know, they can write the partnership agreement as they go.
Speaker B:I mean they didn't and know in the UK civil laws decided on the on the balance of probabilities.
Speaker B:And they filed before they started making money.
Speaker B: tax returns right since like: Speaker B:So everything they did, the name of the bank account was the partnership bank account.
Speaker A:When they were all mates, when they were all together.
Speaker B:We're never going to.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:We're friends forever, BFFs forever and all the rest of the of it, you know, so everything said so in the balance of probabilities they could have had whatever formal verbal agreement.
Speaker B:But all the evidence which includes filing partnership tax returns and you know, including your partnership income in your self assessment then I mean, come on, it's like you're leaving that trail of breadcrumbs of evidence that it was for all intents and purposes a partnership, you know.
Speaker A:So do you know why it fills me with joy?
Speaker A:Because it's one of those moments where the accountants is getting one over on the lawyers.
Speaker A:Do you know what I mean?
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:Oh my God.
Speaker A:There's a piece of law guys you might not have seen.
Speaker A:Here's the partnership.
Speaker B:Actually I was super satisfying because basically at the time, again, I had just graduated a couple of years earlier, I was still training to be an accountant, I was still taking my exams and the lawyers that were already working for free, basically a no win, no fee basis because we had no money and we needed the accounts to be audited and we had absolutely no money for that.
Speaker B:We approached auditors in the music industry and they all wanted to charge us like 10 grand or more.
Speaker B: And this was in: Speaker B:So I had to audit those books myself.
Speaker B:I was not even a formerly qualified accountant and I just got these piles of receipts and ring binders and I had to figure it all out and I had to put it all together, together and I had to figure out what did he have working in his favor to the point that I figured out this thing that everything has to be wound up immediately.
Speaker B:And I gathered all of the evidence and I went to the bank and I told them that it was a partnership, the partnership had dissolved and therefore the bank account had to be frozen.
Speaker B:And freeze the bank account they did.
Speaker B:So the people who were not talking to us for two years, they were stonewalling us for two solid years.
Speaker B:They weren't talking now they were singing.
Speaker B:Their rents didn't get paid, the direct debits didn't get paid.
Speaker B:Someone apparently didn't have had their electricity cut off because all of their personal bills were coming out of the partnership bank account.
Speaker B:So it was a mic drop moment.
Speaker A:And it's like, well, that's a great success.
Speaker A:I mean, are there any sort of failures in your career that really stick to mind and, you know, what did they teach you, as they say?
Speaker B:Yes, working with the wrong clients.
Speaker B:In terms of working with people who don't listen to me.
Speaker B:Because if you're not going to listen to someone who's qualified and someone who genuinely has your best interest, you know, at a professional level, I have a vested interest in every single one of my clients doing well, because if they do well, I do well.
Speaker B:But if you're not going to listen to me, you're wasting my time.
Speaker B:You're wasting your time time and you're wasting the time of somebody else who would actually benefit from my work.
Speaker A:You're meaning almost you give advice and next time you see them, they didn't do it or they do it, they.
Speaker B:Didn'T do it or they ignore it or they just put their head in the, in the sand, you know, like the band did.
Speaker B:They put their head in the sand thinking that if they just ignore the problem, it'll go away.
Speaker B:It does not work like that.
Speaker B:So working with the type of client who's not going to listen to you, and usually you can tell them from a mile away they're going to come from another account and they're going to say, oh, I worked with that accountant for years and years, but that previous accountant was rubbish and now I owe a lot of money in tax and they didn't do a good job, this, that and the other.
Speaker B:And then you start working for the person yourself, you know the one I'm talking about, You've got their number, right?
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:I mean, kind of in order to work well with a tax advisor or something, you've got to work together.
Speaker A:Because tax is so complicated.
Speaker A:There are so many different ways, timing how it was meant, how the commercial financial justifications that you're like, you know, this is the important thread of this story.
Speaker A:You need to take this actions by this date.
Speaker A:Make sure you remember to do this, because if you don't, we're stuck.
Speaker A:Then they don't do it and they turn up two weeks later and say, well, I haven't done it, so what am I going to do?
Speaker A:And you're going to say, there's nothing you can do because you had to do it.
Speaker A:Well, can't we backdate it?
Speaker A:No, we're not bloody backdating.
Speaker A:I told you you needed to do it by exo.
Speaker A:I really relate to you on that.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:And then who do they put the blame on?
Speaker B:The account accountant, if they're the.
Speaker A:I always is a red flag for me when they turn up blaming their old advisors.
Speaker B:And I'm thinking, exactly.
Speaker B:So that was the lesson that I learned.
Speaker B:And you know, I hope luckily now I can spot people like that from a mile away.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker A:And then actually out of interest for this cross border and the qualification, I mean, did you do.
Speaker A:Have you done overseas tax qualifications?
Speaker A:You do the cta, you know, the UNACA or CTA or.
Speaker B:No, I was charged accountant in the UK first when I completed my exams.
Speaker B:And then one of the things that I noticed is, as we were talking earlier in this conversation, making it in America is where the big bucks really are at.
Speaker B:So I was working with initially my friends, doing their taxes, doing mates rates for years and years and years.
Speaker B:And then eventually when they all hit the big time, which is they started playing Coachella in the US and they're going to America and got a record deal in America.
Speaker B:They would go and engage an American accountant, a Brad or a Chad or always a Brad.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I was like, hang on a minute.
Speaker B:I invested in this client's career from day one.
Speaker B:I've done mates rates for ages.
Speaker B:You know, I really put in the work so they could be in a good position.
Speaker B:Obviously, ultimately it's their talent that got them there, but I was a small part of it.
Speaker B:And then when they finally hit the big time, then is Brad or Chad who is capitalizing on the work that I put in.
Speaker B:And I'm like, hang on, no.
Speaker B:How hard can it be?
Speaker B:Be?
Speaker B:So I started, you know, looking at what the tax laws are, how did it work and what qualifications I could have.
Speaker B:And I just signed up for the courses.
Speaker B:I went to California for a couple of years.
Speaker B:I studied over there.
Speaker B:I qualified as a CPA or as Enrolled Agent.
Speaker B:As an enrolled Agent, yes.
Speaker B:And the funny thing is here in the UK when you qualify as a chartered accountant, you have to work, work under somebody else for two years to be able to get your practice license.
Speaker B:Whereas in the US is sink or swim.
Speaker B:The minute you pass and you get your examinations, they're like, you're on your own now, buddy.
Speaker B:Sink or swim.
Speaker B:See you back at the shore.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So I had to hit the ground running and in the end it turned out to work in my favor.
Speaker B:Generally when you start an accountancy career, there's a very fixed route, as in you graduate, you go for graduate placement and then you do your exams and then you work under a partner who's going to teach you the ropes and take you by the hand up to the point that you finalize your qualifications and then you get a bit more experience and then you go off to start your own boutique practice.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And that didn't work for me at all for several reasons.
Speaker B:Reasons.
Speaker B:Number one, I did economics, I didn't do accountancy.
Speaker B:People still don't understand what economists do today.
Speaker B:I didn't really have the connections.
Speaker B: e subprime mortgage crisis in: Speaker B:No one, no employer at the time was in the mood or in a position to sponsor a work visa.
Speaker B:Also, immigration laws were changing right about that time.
Speaker A:Yeah, I was about to say, when you said it at the start, I mean, it said a woman.
Speaker A:I don't think it's about being a woman.
Speaker A:I think it was just you on a two year visa after a gfc.
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:No one could get a job in that space.
Speaker B:Nobody could get a job.
Speaker B:Exactly.
Speaker B:You know, but you know, let alone with a limited time visa, who was going to take a bet on a person like that?
Speaker B:Because you have to, you know, you have to get return on your investment.
Speaker B:Brazilian, Brazilians, like, come on.
Speaker B:So because I didn't have anyone to take me by the hand, because I didn't have anyone to show me the ropes, I had to figure it all out by myself and I, I couldn't afford to fail.
Speaker B:It was not an option.
Speaker B:I could not afford to fuck it up.
Speaker B:So Every time a new situation appeared in front of me, I had to research it really, in depth.
Speaker B:I double checked, I triple check, I quadruple checked.
Speaker B:And I went to the dark depths of hell of the US tax code to be absolutely certain about what I was talking about before I advise the client on it.
Speaker B:And that worked in my favor in a way.
Speaker A:You clearly got these great skills.
Speaker A:You're great at what you do.
Speaker A:Word of mouth will.
Speaker A:Will progress that for you.
Speaker A:So putting yourself in the public sphere is dangerous, isn't it?
Speaker A:In a weird way, it sort of attracts attention you don't necessarily want.
Speaker A:You know, how does that balance feel for you?
Speaker A:Or the public sphere is important.
Speaker A:Is it in terms of building a business or you'd rather this.
Speaker A:You're passionate about some of the stories, in terms of some of the things that are not working in this country or otherwise and you want to.
Speaker A:You want to be part of that discussion.
Speaker B:Yes, there's definitely there that I feel that a lot of people nowadays are seduced by terrible information that is available on Instagram or is available from other people.
Speaker A:That's a lot of bullshit on Tikt.
Speaker B:Oh my God, Instagram and things like that.
Speaker B:There's just so much.
Speaker A:Let me tell you how you can use your trust to do such and such like.
Speaker A:That doesn't work.
Speaker A:It's illegal.
Speaker B:If it worked, you think that it would be on Instagram?
Speaker B:Come on.
Speaker B:And I grew up in that age that when the Internet was just coming up and when I was growing up, it was like, listen, just because is on the Internet doesn't mean that it's true.
Speaker B:And now is the other way around.
Speaker B:Around.
Speaker B:If it's not on the Internet, it basically doesn't exist.
Speaker B:It's not true.
Speaker B:So you have someone who is discreet, someone who has professional decorum and you know, who's good at what they do, who's competent, who's reliable.
Speaker B:But they are going to be drawn out compared to the people who have a very sleek, seductive video on TikTok or Instagram.
Speaker B:And the hearsay as well, amongst other people.
Speaker B:The hearsay as well is absolutely terrible.
Speaker B:The amount of times that I get.
Speaker A:I hearsay is one of my least favorite things in the whole world.
Speaker B:You know, you got the call from a client, clients saying, hey, such and such said that this is tax deductible.
Speaker B:And I was like, buddy, is that such person a qualified chart accountant or anything like that?
Speaker B:No, but they said it's like, well then why are you listening to them?
Speaker A:And what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given.
Speaker B:If you want to make your first million, you got to make 2 million because half of it's going to go to tax.
Speaker A:That sounds.
Speaker A:It's almost Churchill, isn't it?
Speaker A:It's like just cutting it.
Speaker A:What's the worst advice you ever be being given?
Speaker A:Don't worry about tax.
Speaker B:Anyone that says this is tax exempt, if you do this, you pay no tax.
Speaker B:It's like, yeah, bs.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's almost like people are like, yeah, but you know the other one I love from clients and some of them were very well meaning.
Speaker A:It's like, yeah, but I was thinking about what you told me the day and I was thinking, can I do X?
Speaker A:And you're like, look, I think that's lovely that you've tried to come up with an idea, but some of the finest tax minds in the world have been trying to get around this law for 50 years, you know, and trust me, they've thought of everything and all of everything and everything has been stamped out.
Speaker B:Do you know what that is?
Speaker B:It's asking the same question in a different way to try and get a different answer.
Speaker B:Everybody does that.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You're literally just asking the exact same question, but you're asking it in a different way to try and get a different answer.
Speaker B:The answer is still no.
Speaker B:I'm sorry, my delivery is not sugar coated.
Speaker B:But trust me, this is the best option for you.
Speaker A:I mean, really, I guess what is your top tip then for these sort of.
Speaker A:You really focus in that sort of high performance entertainer world, I guess, is it, you know, I mean, they're all entrepreneurs in their way, but any top tips for them?
Speaker B:Don't get seduced by whatever you see on the Internet.
Speaker B:Just because it's on the Internet doesn't mean that it's true.
Speaker A:And what do you think is really bullshit in our industry?
Speaker B:I think is the marketing, actually the marketing methods that are being used today to advertise our profession and the services that we offer, you know, but by writing cringe stuff on LinkedIn or being an absolute culture vulture that the minute some misfortune happens in the world, you use that to plug your skills.
Speaker B:I think that's bullshit.
Speaker A:Yeah, I guess it's almost as you say, virtue signalling or.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Jumping on bandwagons, really.
Speaker B:It's not even that.
Speaker B:It's literally just people who are professional, who are qualified, who know what they're talking about, who know what they're doing, they are having to silly stuff on the Internet for relevance.
Speaker B:I Think it degrades the profession.
Speaker B:And sure, it may make it more accessible, but in the wrong way next.
Speaker A:Time too, that you're listening to someone on the Internet thinking, is that true?
Speaker A:First thing to do is look up their qualifications, you know, see what, see, see what actual qualifications they have.
Speaker A:You know, there's plenty of people out there.
Speaker A:There is an estate agent, for instance.
Speaker A:He's out there banging out complex tax advice.
Speaker A:No idea what he's talking about.
Speaker B:Yeah, go to the ACCA register, see if they're out there.
Speaker B:Or, you know, people who say, I am wealthy, I did this, that and the other.
Speaker B:Just go to companies house is public domain information.
Speaker B:You can see their balance sheet and just put it on chat GPT and they'll Chat GPT can read that micro company accounts on company's house and tell you if this person is making any money or not.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Actually I'm so used to going to company's house, haven't thought about actually saving myself five minutes with chat GBT to.
Speaker B:Get it to pull it out there.
Speaker B:Just like pull down.
Speaker B:It's all public domain resume, you know, critical thinking.
Speaker B:Everyone is saying, oh, you have to think critically.
Speaker B:I don't think anyone's thinking critically enough.
Speaker A:All right, quick far round.
Speaker A:Okay, super quick, super quick answers.
Speaker A:Just a few questions about you.
Speaker A:What was your first job?
Speaker B:I was a swimming instructor.
Speaker B:Assistant.
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker A:What was your worst job?
Speaker B:Stuff in envelopes as a temp while I was at uni.
Speaker B:It was horrible.
Speaker B:Death by paper cuts.
Speaker A:Yeah, you get the paper cuts.
Speaker B:Oh, it was horrible.
Speaker A:Paper is bloody sharp.
Speaker B:It was horrible.
Speaker B:And it was those brown manila envelopes.
Speaker B:It was terrible.
Speaker A:Still don't think a robot can do it?
Speaker A:I think still we're still stuffing envelopes around the country.
Speaker A:Favorite subject at school?
Speaker B:None.
Speaker A:You didn't like anything?
Speaker B:No.
Speaker B:Boys maybe.
Speaker A:Oh, really?
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Despite living with all those men, you wanted more men in your life, you know.
Speaker B:Well, yeah, you learn to be forgiving when you, you know, when you see what they go through firsthand.
Speaker A:What's your special skill?
Speaker B:I have a PhD in I told you so.
Speaker B:I'm basically the dean of the London Institute of I told you so.
Speaker A:I love that.
Speaker A:That's great.
Speaker A:What did you want to be when you.
Speaker A:You grew up?
Speaker B:An archaeologist.
Speaker A:Really?
Speaker B:I love digging up the past.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And you weren't.
Speaker A:You didn't like history at school then?
Speaker A:No, it's just sort of.
Speaker B:No, I like the gossip of history.
Speaker B:But yeah, I wanted to be an archaeology and just go to far funk places and you Know, dig up stuff and find out what people are up to.
Speaker A:Brushing mud.
Speaker B:The gossips.
Speaker B:Oh my God.
Speaker B:Like we found this evidence that people were up to this, that and the other in ancient times.
Speaker B:Woo.
Speaker A:What did you, your parents want you to be?
Speaker B:Not an archaeologist?
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker B:They were like, get a job.
Speaker B:They probably wanted me to be a, you know, civil servant.
Speaker B:Get a job, get a pension and die.
Speaker A:Was it.
Speaker A:Was Indiana Jones an influence to your archaeology?
Speaker B:Obviously.
Speaker A:Gorgeous Harrison Ford.
Speaker B:Gorgeous Harrison Ford.
Speaker B:Going to exotic places and, you know, living Indy, going in.
Speaker B:Wicked.
Speaker B:The at adventures and monkeys on his shoulder.
Speaker A:He must have done a massive amount for the archaeologists.
Speaker A:I mean the number of archaeologists in the world must have gone from bugger all to a lot.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And fighting Nazis.
Speaker B:Who doesn't love that?
Speaker A:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker A:You know, it's.
Speaker A:We need a bit more of that.
Speaker A:What's your go to?
Speaker A:Karaoke song.
Speaker B:Anything by Dolly Parton.
Speaker A:Oh, she hard to sing.
Speaker A:She's bloody good singer.
Speaker A:She must be quite hard to see.
Speaker A:What's her fate?
Speaker A:Famous one.
Speaker A:It's all of them basically.
Speaker A:9 to 5.
Speaker B:Jolie, coat of many colors, island in the streams.
Speaker A:Oh, I don't know if I know that one.
Speaker B:You know that one.
Speaker A:I mean that's, that's the tune.
Speaker A:That's the going to work tune, isn't it?
Speaker A:Oh man, what a tune it is.
Speaker B:Tune.
Speaker A:And I think I know the answer to this as a dog lover.
Speaker A:Office, dogs, business or.
Speaker B:Dogs should work from home.
Speaker B:Only they deserve better.
Speaker A:Oh, okay, well, sorry, Romeo, you know.
Speaker A:What are you doing?
Speaker A:Using you.
Speaker A:Yeah, but he wants to be with me.
Speaker A:He doesn't want to be at home and I'm here all the time and.
Speaker B:You sort your life out, mate.
Speaker B:You, you know.
Speaker A:Well, I can't really do that, you know, I'm.
Speaker A:I'm attached to this family business, you know, if I, if, if, if I work from home all the time, I abandoned my family.
Speaker A:So, yeah, compromises everywhere in life.
Speaker A:What's your, what's your guilty pleasure?
Speaker B:I have no shame.
Speaker B:I'm proud of every single one of my pleasures.
Speaker A:Go, go get, go on.
Speaker B:Give.
Speaker A:Give us one.
Speaker A:You said you had no shame.
Speaker A:Come on.
Speaker B:I'm no shame.
Speaker A:Crack cocaine.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker B:What, what is that?
Speaker B:What?
Speaker A:Where are we at?
Speaker B:Yeah, sure, you know, the mood strikes you.
Speaker B:Why not?
Speaker A:Very relaxing bit of crack, that's what I hear.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, just the usual.
Speaker B:Chocolate, the odd siggy, you know, and smoking, drinking, never thinking.
Speaker A:Now we're just gonna have a little bit fun with our business or bullshit quiz.
Speaker A:You Got your paddle there?
Speaker B:I have my paddle.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Bullshit.
Speaker A:What?
Speaker A:One side Business.
Speaker A:You are very.
Speaker A:A non pro pro business.
Speaker A:Let's get out of business.
Speaker A:Yeah, we'll see about that.
Speaker A:So I'll name some terms.
Speaker A:You tell me whether you hold your paddle up and you say business or.
Speaker A:And then we discuss or not.
Speaker A:Sometimes we might just think they're dull and forget about it.
Speaker A:Let's start with an old classic.
Speaker A:All clear.
Speaker A:You clear?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Let's do it.
Speaker A:Let's do it.
Speaker A:Diversity quota voters.
Speaker A:Bullshit.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:And why are they bullshit?
Speaker B:Because the math doesn't check out.
Speaker A:The maths doesn't check out?
Speaker A:What is the maths?
Speaker B:Statistically speaking, white people are the minority all over the world.
Speaker A:Oh, Jesus Christ.
Speaker A:You heard it here first.
Speaker B:There's a lot less of you than there are of me.
Speaker B:I'm Latina, I'm Hispanic.
Speaker B:There are a lot more of me than.
Speaker B:Than there are of you.
Speaker B:So technically speaking, you are the minority, not me.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, I've been waiting for someone to say this for a long time.
Speaker A:As a white man who's just permanently being underrepresented these days.
Speaker A:I am underrepresented.
Speaker B:My husband is.
Speaker B:Well, you're underrepresented in your own home.
Speaker B:You're probably the only white person in your immediate family if your wife is from Trinidad.
Speaker A:No, my daughter's white.
Speaker A:She came out white.
Speaker B:She came out white, but she's white.
Speaker A:My son came out brown.
Speaker B:She's like faux white.
Speaker A:I guess she looks at exact.
Speaker A:Absolutely white.
Speaker B:She's like, I look white, but I'm not white.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, what is white?
Speaker A:You know what I mean?
Speaker A:You know, because I mean, I'm Dutch Irish, Scandi, French, you know, 1% Filipino.
Speaker A:Someone got busy and somehow.
Speaker B:Oh, you little mutt.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Oh, no, it's.
Speaker A:It's like half a percent Filipino.
Speaker A:And then they could see when it happened.
Speaker A:It's like, bloody hell.
Speaker A:What was Granddad John up to?
Speaker A:But it just means that like, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker A:We had a little bit of action.
Speaker B:Extra odd.
Speaker B:Extramarital affair.
Speaker A:Equal paternity leave.
Speaker A:Business.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Very good.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:They should do it.
Speaker A:I'm getting the feeling you're just going to give me the answer because I told you so means that, you know, there's no point me debating with you now.
Speaker A:I'll be right.
Speaker B:You should know better than debating with me at this point.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Personality type tests.
Speaker A:You done one?
Speaker B:Yes, that's why I know the.
Speaker A:Why are they bullshit?
Speaker B:Because everyone is biased even when they're answering personality quiz so they're not.
Speaker B:They're going to give you the answer that they think they are.
Speaker B:They're not going to have an honest and objective view of themselves to respond it fairly.
Speaker A:That reminds me of when I got separated, sitting with my friend, filling in eharmony and, like, characterizing myself.
Speaker A:And it's like, you know, how.
Speaker A:How patient.
Speaker A:I'm pretty patient, my friends.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:And I'm not patient.
Speaker A:No, not at all.
Speaker A:You know, like.
Speaker A:Like, by the end of this test, I was like, you know what?
Speaker A:You man, like, you know, oh, you're so perfect.
Speaker A:You know, look at.
Speaker A:Look at how you rated me on all these.
Speaker A:I'm just being honest, mate.
Speaker A:I'm just being honest.
Speaker A:And then I pressed the button and it said.
Speaker A:Because right at the start of the test, it made you do the whole thing and it said, are you.
Speaker A:I said, I'm separated.
Speaker A:And it goes, you're banned from eharmony.
Speaker A:You can't.
Speaker A:You can't be fully divorced.
Speaker A:You can't.
Speaker A:That's it.
Speaker A:My account's closed.
Speaker A:I'm like, I just spent an hour on that with my friend, breaking down on this piece of.
Speaker A:You know, and I was so annoyed.
Speaker A:I was like, stayed up that night, create.
Speaker A:Got a new email address, created this new thing, said, no, I'm divorced.
Speaker A:Filled it all out again how I saw it, you know, and then press the button.
Speaker A:I never, ever dated or met anyone on that thing.
Speaker A:I don't think I ever logged in again.
Speaker A:But I was like, you know, you see, you know, I'm not such a bad person after all.
Speaker B:I rest my case.
Speaker A:Yeah, but you're quite right.
Speaker A:Right wing, you mean bullshit.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker B:I am a hardcore normie.
Speaker B:Bang on in the middle.
Speaker A:Yeah, I. I desperately try and be that.
Speaker A:But are you that really, you know, you would be regarded as right wing, I would say, from the things.
Speaker A:Things I've learned from you.
Speaker B:I guess so.
Speaker B:But no, I'm a hardcore normie.
Speaker B:I'm just your basic, you know, nonsense, like, Latina mom that's just gonna set you straight, probably with a chunkler.
Speaker A:I think you're a sophisticated truth teller.
Speaker A:Not some basic truth teller, but you're trying.
Speaker A:You're trying.
Speaker A:That's a really interesting point.
Speaker A:Maybe it gets to the core of what maybe.
Speaker A:Maybe we both feel in, is that I try and be a centrist, but the truth is uncomfortable, and you're called right wing for it.
Speaker A:Like, you all have got these prejudice things, and it's like, no, I'm just trying to Tell you like where I see the balance of this problem, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean anyone can call you whatever they want.
Speaker B:That's a matter of definition as well.
Speaker B:And you know, you can define me as Jesus for my beliefs, but again, that's all a matter of definitely definition.
Speaker A:Dangerous.
Speaker A:Rolling out the Jesus.
Speaker B:I know everyone's like labeling everyone else one thing or another and then just is all relative.
Speaker B:So yeah, compared to certain people, I would be extremely right wing.
Speaker B:But also compared to other people, I would be an absolute closet liberal.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, you use different words there.
Speaker A:So I would sort of agree.
Speaker A:I'm very liberal about what, how people want to live their life.
Speaker A:I'm a libertarian, but I am proud, pro business or try and be realistic about, you know.
Speaker A:Yes, it'd be lovely if we taxed everyone at 90 and all that.
Speaker A:Everyone was fine.
Speaker A:But it doesn't work.
Speaker A:It just doesn't work.
Speaker B:Yeah, look, it can't be a free for all.
Speaker B:You have to have some rules at some point, you know, and you just got to make sure it's a good.
Speaker A:Clean fight, good clean flight.
Speaker A:Left wing.
Speaker A:Oh, similar problem.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean from Brazil.
Speaker B:Left wing.
Speaker B:And you know, if you're supporting economic socialism or communism, I'm sorry, you're a bit dumb.
Speaker A:You know, the weird thing is with humans is we are all nuanced, but we are also quite extreme contradictions, I. E. There really is a good and a bad bit of us.
Speaker A:So the interesting, because I hate the way people get polarized in the public between they do one bad thing and therefore they're evil, when the reality is it's nuanced.
Speaker A:But actually, actually the interesting thing psychologically is that we are, we are trying to be this good person, knowing we're this terrible animal with greed and all these terrible emotions underneath it.
Speaker A:So there is, you know, it's like they say it's a Native American thing, isn't it?
Speaker A:You know that you have a bad wolf and a good wolf inside of you.
Speaker A:Which wolf wins?
Speaker A:The wolf that you feed.
Speaker A:And you know, we're all kind of these contradictions.
Speaker A:So it's funny in a way.
Speaker A:We're very aware of the dark and the light sides of our characters underneath it because we experience it, but therefore we see people.
Speaker A:And when we want to categorize them in one of those two boxes and that's how we storytell and everything.
Speaker A:But we forget this basic point that they're not.
Speaker A:No one is in one box.
Speaker A:Everyone is both animals being pulling in both directions.
Speaker A:You know, it depends.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:There's a name for that.
Speaker B:It's called cognitive dissonance.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:And we're all guilty of it.
Speaker B:There is in behavioral economics you have no less than 160 recognizable human biases.
Speaker B:Biases.
Speaker B:And it's called the human Codex bias.
Speaker B:There are 160 of them identified.
Speaker B:And we're all guilty of it.
Speaker B:We are a social animal and agreement is a survival evolutionary skill.
Speaker B:And we all gravitate to the people who've got validate our own life choices, you know, because then it makes.
Speaker B:It gives us a sense of belonging, you know, it gives us a sense of understanding and comfort.
Speaker A:Yeah, I agree with that.
Speaker A:And I.
Speaker A:It's funny a little bit when people go, ah, they're racist.
Speaker A:It's like we're all prejudice.
Speaker A:We all have prejudice.
Speaker A:In fact, it makes me believe.
Speaker A:And they're like, put AI in charge.
Speaker A:You know, it'll have its own biases, but maybe it can have 50 rather than 160.
Speaker B:Is just a really fancy Tamagotchi.
Speaker B:I don't think we're quite there yet.
Speaker A:Yeah, Tamagotchi was.
Speaker A:What was Tamagotchi?
Speaker B:It was those little virtual pets from the 90s, the little machine that you had to feed and keep alive.
Speaker B: Tamagotchi for, you know, the: Speaker A:Where can people find out more about you?
Speaker B:They could go on LinkedIn, Oriana Morrison, or they can find us on Instagram ecnmx and see what we've been up to.
Speaker A:Very good.
Speaker A:And is that what, how do you say, ecnmx is that.
Speaker A:Is there another way of saying it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Is tech speak for economics at uni?
Speaker B:That's how we will say to each other.
Speaker B:Hey, are you going to check out ECNMX economics class today?
Speaker A:Oh, okay.
Speaker A:Skip the vowels as usual.
Speaker B:Skip the vows.
Speaker B:House.
Speaker B:I was young once.
Speaker A:Brilliant.
Speaker A:So there you have it.
Speaker A:That was this week's episode of Business Without.
Speaker A:We'll be back next Wednesday.
Speaker A:Until then, it's ciao.
