Episode 385
To be an architect you need to be much more than an artist
EP 385 - Our guest this week is Fernando Sordo Madaleno, a third generation architect working in the family firm Sordo Madaleno. Originally from Mexico City, Fernando is now based in London, spearheading the firm’s expansion as an international architecture studio.
As well as discussing life in the family business we had a fascinating chat around architecture, the built environment.
Fernando has a beautiful philosophy of architecture, that is should try and combine three things. A deep, well researched, understanding of the context and culture that the building is going to be in especially if you are coming as an outsider. Why great buildings should always be designed to the human scale (yes he does explain what that means), and how great architects should always try and think of ways to push the brief so that projects can have a positive impact on the communities that they exist in.
He also mentions that the client is sometimes right. Which is nice.
*For Apple Podcast chapters, access them from the menu in the bottom right corner of your player*
Spotify Video Chapters:
00:00 BWB with Fernando Sordo Madaleno
01:18 Meet Fernando
03:09 Quickfire - Get To Know Fernando
05:51 Fernando's Current Projects and Vision
07:12 The Essence of Sordo Madaleno
08:11 Human-Centric Urban Planning
12:12 Challenges and Inspirations in Architecture
18:06 The Unique Character of Mexico City
21:59 The Legacy of Sordo Madaleno
24:57 The Value of Good Architecture
28:31 Local Efficiency and Quality
28:49 Innovative School Design
29:40 Community-Centric Architecture
32:10 Global Influence of Mexican Architecture
37:22 Challenges of International Expansion
42:15 The Role of AI in Architecture
46:11 Balancing Client Needs and Architectural Vision
57:08 Advice for Aspiring Architects and Entrepreneurs
59:29 Wrap Up
Watch and subscribe to us on YouTube
Follow us:
If you'd like to be on the show, get in contact - mail@businesswithoutbullshit.me
BWB is powered by Oury Clark
Transcript
I mean architecture is art and I think art good, art makes us feel good.
Speaker B:It has an effect.
Speaker A:It has an effect, right.
Speaker A:I believe architecture has an effect in everybody nowadays.
Speaker A:To be an architect you need to be much more than just an artist.
Speaker A:You need to understand how the world works.
Speaker B:Is London revered in any way for architecture?
Speaker A:No, definitely.
Speaker A:I think London is my favorite city actually.
Speaker A:It's like a tapestry of all of these different boroughs that add different dynamics.
Speaker A:The entire London area.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And those weird moments like the Blitz, you know, what would London be like without the blitz?
Speaker A:For me, Mexico City is incredible.
Speaker A:The pre Hispanic heritage that still lives on, it's incredible.
Speaker A:And I think that's, that's a huge part of our identity today.
Speaker B:And there's Aztec buildings remaining or.
Speaker A:Yeah, there are buildings, but actually like the Spanish were quite super brutal.
Speaker A:They had like this templo mayor they dismantle and they use the actual rocks of the Aztecs temple and then they built a Catholic church on top of it.
Speaker A:So yeah, it was quite ruthless.
Speaker B:Hi and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.
Speaker B:We're here to help the founders, entrepreneurs, business owners, anyone who wrestles with the job of being in charge.
Speaker B:And if you like what we do here, please rate and review us on Spotify and Apple and come say hi on YouTube if you fancy watching us in action.
Speaker B:Links are in the episode description or just search for at BWB London.
Speaker B:As you can see, we've moved up in the world this week with a tie.
Speaker B:That's what we like.
Speaker B:And our guest this week is Fernando Sordo Madeleino, one of the third generation working in a family firm.
Speaker B:I know what that feels like.
Speaker B:The architectural firm Sordo Madeleino, which is very well known in Mexico.
Speaker B:Fernando recently relocated to London to spearhead the firm's establishment internationally, also taking on many projects in the Middle East.
Speaker B:He feels that London really is the place to internationalise, which is always nice to hear.
Speaker B:He takes us on a fascinating tourist philosophy of architecture, including how architects are artists but can't work in isolation.
Speaker B:How they need to be informed not just by other people, but the surrounding context and culture of the building.
Speaker B:And why great buildings need to be thought about at the human scale.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:He explains what that means rather than driven by the architects or clients ego.
Speaker B:And why you should always try to think of ways to create a benefit to society and the immediate community with any building project.
Speaker B:In his world, applying these three principles means you have a chance becoming a great architect, not just a good one.
Speaker B:It's a fascinating chat, check it Out.
Speaker B:I am Andy Ory and today we are joined by Fernando Sordo Madaleno.
Speaker B:Fernando is partner and director of architectural firm Sordo Madeleino, a firm that has been shaping Mexico's architectural landscape for over 80 years.
Speaker B:His work blends creativity, urbanism and architecture to push the boundaries of real estate development, which have put him at the helm of an award winning project across the globe, from Dominican Republic to Thailand, Saudi Arabia and the uae.
Speaker B:Each one has defined the relationship between the design and urban life.
Speaker B:Fernando, welcome to the podcast.
Speaker A:Well, thank you for the invite, Andy.
Speaker B:No problem.
Speaker B:So we're going to start with something easy.
Speaker B:Fernando is.
Speaker B:I'm just going to ask you a load of simple questions you'll know the answers to and we just, we just have quick answers to.
Speaker B:Just to get to know you a little bit better.
Speaker B:Give the audience a chance to orientate themselves.
Speaker B:So what was your first job, Fernando?
Speaker A:My first job was actually as a draftsman at the family studio.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And a draftsman's person who draws.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:What was your worst job?
Speaker A:My worst job?
Speaker A:Probably.
Speaker A:I mean, I love what I do, actually, and I love every bit of it.
Speaker A:So specifically a job, I would say it's probably, you know, spending just over, over time and overnight, you know, working on architecture because I've been dedicated all my life to.
Speaker A:To this job.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:So, yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So what your worst job is, is you love your architecture, not doing it.
Speaker B:Is that it?
Speaker A:Doing the admin?
Speaker B:Almost, yes.
Speaker A:Operations, all of that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's fun.
Speaker B:Favorite subject at school?
Speaker A:History.
Speaker B:Mm, I agree.
Speaker B:What is your special skill, Fernando?
Speaker A:I think I'm creative.
Speaker B:Creative.
Speaker B:Very nice.
Speaker B:What did you want to be when you grew up?
Speaker A:An architect, actually.
Speaker B:Always.
Speaker B:Yeah, Always inspired, I guess, by your father and grandfather.
Speaker A:Did you?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:That's the difference of working in an accounting business, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker B:You don't want to be it when you grow up.
Speaker B:My dad didn't.
Speaker B:I didn't.
Speaker B:What did your parents want you to be?
Speaker A:Actually, you know, my father was pushed to architecture in a way, so he didn't want to do that for us.
Speaker A:So actually, you know, they were always super supportive on.
Speaker A:On whatever we chose, so they would have.
Speaker B:They were.
Speaker B:He was almost like, do whatever.
Speaker B:Yeah, anything but architecture.
Speaker B:I want to do architecture.
Speaker A:And now two.
Speaker A:Two of us are architects, so it worked.
Speaker B:Do you ever do karaoke?
Speaker B:Have you got a go to karaoke Song?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I would say Hotel California.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Song.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's an amazing song.
Speaker B:Office Dogs.
Speaker B:I don't know if you have any in the office.
Speaker B:Office, dogs, Business or I think business, man.
Speaker B:Business.
Speaker B:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker B:I guess not.
Speaker B:But have you ever been fired?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:And what is your vice?
Speaker B:So vices, you know, definitely work, man.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:You're a workaholic.
Speaker A:Yeah, my wife would, you know, support that statement.
Speaker B:So that's the end of the quick fire round.
Speaker B:That's lovely.
Speaker B:That gives us a sense.
Speaker B:So just give us an overview of what you're up to at the moment, Fernando.
Speaker B:You know, let's have a sense of what's going on.
Speaker A:Well, I mean, lots of changes have happened in the last few years, right?
Speaker A:So we moved my wife and myself to London.
Speaker A:So I mean, we started the international studio of architecture from our family firm.
Speaker A:And that's been super exciting.
Speaker A:And living in a city like London has been an incredible experience.
Speaker B:And what led to this expansion, why expand?
Speaker A:I mean, as you said and mentioned at the beginning, is sort of has been consolidating a lot of its portfolio in Mexico during the 87 years that the studio has been on practice.
Speaker A:And you know, I always saw it, us as the third generation that we wanted to become more international.
Speaker A:And really that ambition was because I love to do architecture and I love history and I love to get to learn about other cultures.
Speaker A:So, you know, my ambition was to become an international architecture firm.
Speaker A:And what's more international than, than London, right?
Speaker B:Well, that's nice of you to say, but give us a sense, I mean, you know, for listeners I guess, outside of Mexico.
Speaker B:Who is sort of Magdalena?
Speaker B:What, what is sort of Magdalena?
Speaker B:I mean, other than an architectural firm, we're talking about generations here.
Speaker A:Well, for me, sort of the, the studio, it's, it's almost part of the art DNA.
Speaker A:So you know, for three generations it was founded by my grandfather and it's, it's a part of our identity.
Speaker B:You mean as a Mexican or you mean as a family?
Speaker B:As a family.
Speaker A:As a family.
Speaker A:It's almost our trade, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:It's like you have that family of stonemasons and that trade is passed on on generations because we're really passionate about the power of architecture, you know, and the changes and things that it can provoke to a specific place.
Speaker A:And yeah, I mean, sort of Maleno does, you know, from single family homes to mixed use developments to huge master plan.
Speaker A:So we do a little bit of everything.
Speaker A:And as we say in architecture, it's all about the human scale.
Speaker A:Doesn't matter the size of the project.
Speaker A:But as you really understand the human scale, that's the end Goal.
Speaker A:What's human scale when you're talking about the specific space that is designed for us people and how that changes depending on the type of project that you're doing?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So if you're doing a huge master plan and you're designing a city, then you need to consider how wide the different street blocks or the, you know, need to be.
Speaker B:Depending on humans.
Speaker A:Yeah, for the human.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because this is a bit like you're saying how your urban landscapes shapes humanity.
Speaker B:I mean, at a smaller level, it's ensuring that you build things around humans.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Not cars, for example.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:So that's what the human scale means because you could, you could build la.
Speaker B:You could say.
Speaker B:Well, there's no.
Speaker B:I mean, you go to some cities in America, there's no sidewalk, it's just cars, you know, and it's very strange to an English person.
Speaker A:No, definitely.
Speaker A:I think it's.
Speaker A:Nowadays a priority is it's, you know, how.
Speaker A:How we live, the quality of life.
Speaker A:And I, I believe good planning, good urban planning or good architecture can definitely.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It helps a lot, you know, in.
Speaker A:In that sense.
Speaker B:Well, there's two bits, isn't it?
Speaker B:Urban planning is kind of how the cars and the people move, and then there's the buildings and what they look like.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you have those two layers, right.
Speaker A:You have like the private buildings and then you have the infrastructure.
Speaker A:So if you think the infrastructure as the nervous system, for example, and then the buildings, you know, these different components that are being linked.
Speaker A:So I think those two things, they need to be integrated on the best part.
Speaker A:I think that is a really interesting question in the sense of how private buildings can actually make the public realm better.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I find it very interesting, that suggestion you're making, this effect it has.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, definitely.
Speaker A:And I think good architects, they look beyond their projects.
Speaker A:So, for example, if you get a commission of a building, you really need to understand everything.
Speaker A:It's not about just the program, or if it's an office building, the people that are going to work within that.
Speaker A:You really need to understand the culture, the way of working, the social dynamics, you know, just legacy, history, memory, all of these things that are not technical.
Speaker B:Do you think a lot of, you know, if I was being cynical, you know, architecturally, you know, you can go into a building and you go to reception, you use the toilet, you go to a meeting, you walk out.
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Most people aren't really picking up on.
Speaker B:Most people won't even notice it will any.
Speaker B:You know, will they Even feel it, but it's important.
Speaker B:Do you think that you bring out those elements artistically?
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I mean, architecture is art for me, you know, and I think art, you know, good art makes us feel good.
Speaker A:You know, if you look at a painting that you like or if you're into music, I know you.
Speaker A:Has an effect.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Music has an effect on you, Andy.
Speaker A:And I believe architecture has an effect in everybody.
Speaker A:But maybe some are more sensible to what architecture especially mean.
Speaker A:But I believe that everybody interacts with architecture.
Speaker A:So you don't really like to be in a really dark, cold room, you know what I mean?
Speaker A:So you always are looking for, you know, natural light, you know, to be comfortable in terms of temperature.
Speaker A:And all of that can be, you know, just good design.
Speaker A:You can create solutions to all of those simple problems with.
Speaker A:With good design.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:I'm obviously more familiar with London than I am with Mexico City and things.
Speaker B:But, you know, are there examples of cities with terrible architecture that you think sort of affects the city?
Speaker A:No, I think when we're talking about cities, obviously there are many things are involved in the planning of a city.
Speaker A:If you go to Latin America, you know, the expansion of population has been, you know, exploding.
Speaker A:So that brings challenges in terms of water, public transportation, all of these things, because we tend to go farther and farther away from the source.
Speaker A:That's probably downtown and the center of the city.
Speaker A:So that really creates challenges.
Speaker A:But I think small mechanisms, and I would argue that ideas so simple, like in London, for example, that you have the basements that actually you probably have, I don't know, 10%, 20% more square.
Speaker B:Meters of spaces are quite common in London Offices, like we're in right now.
Speaker A:Exactly.
Speaker A:And we're in a basement.
Speaker A:And this is a pretty nice space.
Speaker A:You have natural light.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Basements are less common, I guess, in a lot of cities.
Speaker B:They build on top of the ground because they're expensive.
Speaker A:Definitely, because you have a good transportation system.
Speaker A:So you don't need to have, you know, underground parking, for example.
Speaker A:So that's a good decision.
Speaker B:Yeah, right.
Speaker B:You know, and also, a lot of London is clay, which enabled us to have the tube.
Speaker B:And probably means that digging our basement isn't as expensive as it is when it's granite, you know what I mean?
Speaker B:So, and then because of the clay, tall buildings wobble more, you know, and so therefore maybe they were like, well, we're better to dig down, you know, I don't know that.
Speaker B:I don't know the history of it.
Speaker B:I mean, I could think of a Town that every time I go to, much as I love it, sorry, Icelandic friends, but Reykjavik, I mean, Reykjavik, you know, it's got some nice buildings now, like the opera house and stuff.
Speaker B:But God, you know, when I used to go there 20 years ago, because basically the city was sort of built like that in the 70s.
Speaker B:It's a bit like when you get those post war, it's like, yeah, we just need to get it up, you know, we don't have Philos cement, we don't care.
Speaker B:But actually, sorry Rey of it, but there are bits of recky of it that it's just.
Speaker B:They're just all like the most boring 70s buildings, you know, and it, you know, has a negative effect, I guess.
Speaker A:No, of course, and that's what I mean in the Latin American cities.
Speaker A:But the other interesting part that maybe London doesn't have what the Latin American cities have, is that the lack of control in some ways generates really interesting moments.
Speaker B:Right, so you mean the lack of planning permissions.
Speaker A:Yeah, because if you go to.
Speaker A:I mean, if you go to these little towns in Italy, you know, if you go there, as, you know, a guy that is urban planning in London and has safety, fire and safety regulations and mobility strategies, they would go crazy.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because nothing works.
Speaker A:But for them, they work.
Speaker A:It works because it was almost like instinct that and just common sense that how you create, you know, a street and then the height of the building and that brings, you know, a really interesting romantic side to architecture.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because these little towns are amazing.
Speaker B:So actually you can get some really nice buy.
Speaker B:It may not be fulfilling all the requirements that if someone comes up with a sort of list of all of these, these are all the things that we have to do in order to.
Speaker B:And you just let them get on with it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think it's a matter of how organically can that town or city be developed.
Speaker A:Because the problem with the Latin American cities, for example, is that the pace, and this is going back to my previous idea, is the pace of growth that just outgrows the planning and all of these strategies because of the timing and all of this.
Speaker A:But I think London has been developed through centuries, you know.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And those weird moments like the Blitz, you know, what would London be like without the Blitz?
Speaker B:I mean it was a terrible event in history and when art in London's history.
Speaker B:But it meant that we got to rebuild and there's all sorts of things that would not exist.
Speaker B:And actually, you know, what is it that's nice about London?
Speaker B:And there's other cities like this.
Speaker B:But it's the mix.
Speaker B:It's the mix of, you know, whether it be, you know, an economic mix or, you know, an architectural mix.
Speaker B:You know, this sort of, you know, the old is next to the new is next to the ugly.
Speaker B:You know, it's a sort of strange city like that.
Speaker B:I mean, and just.
Speaker B:Just putting my Union Jack underpants on and my London hat for a moment.
Speaker B:Is London revered in any way for architecture?
Speaker B:I mean, is it.
Speaker B:You know, for an architect, there are certain cities that are really amazing.
Speaker B:Or not.
Speaker A:No, definitely.
Speaker A:I think London is my favorite city, actually.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's an accident.
Speaker B:Here first, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker B:Thank.
Speaker B:Crossed over.
Speaker A:We can wrap up things.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because I think, you know, it's.
Speaker A:It's.
Speaker A:It's history that I, you know, truly love.
Speaker A:And, and then, you know, it's super interesting because as you're saying, it's like a tapestry of all of these different boroughs that add different dynamics now to the entire London area.
Speaker A:You know, you can have all these central areas, but then you have amazing parks, amazing public space.
Speaker A:You have the river that.
Speaker A:For me, the river is.
Speaker A:It's an incredible asset.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:When you don't have the.
Speaker B:Brussels doesn't have a river or.
Speaker B:Or water doesn't have a water feature.
Speaker B:When someone says that to you, you're suddenly like, oh, yeah.
Speaker B:Because how do you see a city?
Speaker B:I mean, there's.
Speaker B:There's curious things, isn't it, that the, The.
Speaker B:The ground make it up like, you know, New York's granite, so they could build these huge buildings.
Speaker B:We're clay, so we couldn't build the really tall buildings until they more recently worked out to do it.
Speaker B:What's.
Speaker B:What's Mexico City like?
Speaker B:That's your home, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, it's incredible.
Speaker A: , I believe, you know, in the: Speaker A:They came to see a beautiful city that was sitting on top of a lake.
Speaker A:You're surrounded by volcanoes.
Speaker A:You know, that that's probably.
Speaker A:That would have been the best site.
Speaker A:It's in a valley.
Speaker B:I have been many, many years ago, but.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:So the city actually, you know, the lake is now dry because everything is built now.
Speaker A:And obviously we.
Speaker A:We have a huge problem because in terms of foundations as well, whereas everything is.
Speaker A:It's mud, so.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:And you've got 30 million people or.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, it' million.
Speaker B:22 million.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's crazy but for me, Mexico City, it's incredible.
Speaker A:I mean it's quite similar to London in the sense of you have all of these boroughs or barrios as we call them in Mexico where you have Roma, Condesa, Polanco, Juarez, all of these really interesting parts of the city where you have beautiful restaurants, you have art galleries, museums, you know, all of the colonial buildings.
Speaker B:Is there architecture before the Spanish, you said it was a city before they turned out or was that all gone?
Speaker A:No, no, no.
Speaker A:Well they, they actually built on top of it.
Speaker A:It's sort of.
Speaker B:Was it before the Spanish?
Speaker B:It would have been indigenous.
Speaker A:Yeah, the Aztecs, right?
Speaker A:Aztecs, yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:The amazing.
Speaker B:Like, like the people who were still ahead of us and then we turned up with our diseases, spread them around a bit, you know.
Speaker B:Brilliant.
Speaker A:That's correct.
Speaker A:So I, I mean it's.
Speaker A:Yeah, the pre Hispanic heritage that still lives on, it' That's a huge part of our identity today.
Speaker B:And there's Aztec buildings remaining or is it more architect?
Speaker B:More?
Speaker A:Yeah, there are buildings, but actually like the Spanish were quite super brutal.
Speaker B:They didn't understand our modern perspective back then, did they?
Speaker B:They were just like flatten it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you know, they had like this Templo Mayor, they built that cathedral on top, you know, they dismantle and they use the actual rocks of the Templo Mayor, the Aztecs temple and then they built a Catholic church on top of it.
Speaker A:So yeah, it was quite ruthless.
Speaker A:And so yeah, you just get some hints around Mexico City of what it used to be.
Speaker A:But actually I think in many ways it brought some conscience to us as Mexican architects and city planners because in many ways we had a lot of missed opportunities.
Speaker A:I mean we used to have lots of rivers that now are, you know, just streets and highways.
Speaker A:And then we used to have a lake and now, you know, it's completely dry.
Speaker A:And there was going to be a Norman Foster airport going in Lago Tescoco that got scrapped and then now it's a park, I believe.
Speaker A:But it's, you know, we always think of, imagine what that could have been, you know, so that's always on the back of our mind because we have huge problems with water.
Speaker A:I mean, who doesn't?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But in Mexico we, we get or no water or we get tons of.
Speaker B:It at the same day, sort of flooding and all.
Speaker A:Yeah, like in 10 in terms of the amount of rainfall you get in Mexico versus London, I think it's quite similar.
Speaker A:But in Mexico, it all happens in one day.
Speaker B:Does it?
Speaker A:Yeah, like in.
Speaker A:Everything happens in three months or two months.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:And within this city of Mexico, I mean, there's some.
Speaker B:There's some buildings that are well known.
Speaker B:That's your family, isn't it?
Speaker B:Your father or your grandfather built or are designed anyway?
Speaker A:Yes, correct.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, my.
Speaker A:My grandfather had an amazing career.
Speaker B:What's he most known for, if people looked it up, was a particular building.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I mean, he has one building that is in the permanent collection at the MoMA in New York.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Wait, how can you put a building in a picture?
Speaker A:A picture of the building.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Ship it in, John.
Speaker B:You'd be very American, wouldn't it?
Speaker B:Give me London Bridge.
Speaker B:Give me a building from Mexico.
Speaker A:Give me a piece of it.
Speaker A:No, the actual picture that are original from that building.
Speaker A: Yeah, it was: Speaker B:What's it called, the building?
Speaker A:It's called Palmas.
Speaker A:So the name of the street and the number is 555.
Speaker A:So it's quite known in the architectural world.
Speaker A:But you can look it up and it was.
Speaker B:It was innovative.
Speaker B:Was it?
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:They call it the pretem lado.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker A:That means that, you know, that it was, you know, previously impacted by a earthquake because it.
Speaker A:All of the slabs are shifting.
Speaker B:Oh, well, it was built and had an earthquake.
Speaker A:No, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker A:Like, it looked like.
Speaker B:It look like.
Speaker A:Oh, well, cool.
Speaker B:It must have been building it going.
Speaker B:He's bugging the designs up here.
Speaker A:You know, these guys are making it all wrong.
Speaker A: But imagine in: Speaker A:So modernist movement is all about this rigorous repetition.
Speaker A:It's super simple object type.
Speaker A:Seagram Building in New York by Mies van der Rohe, for example.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And then, you know, you have my grandfather coming up with this building that's actually shifting and moving.
Speaker B:I think this idea of things inspiring you is really interesting.
Speaker B:I was just with my dear little daughter at my mom's house.
Speaker B:And my mum and dad, you know, being in their 80s, bless them, have got furniture like Pre.
Speaker B:You know, they've got proper furniture like Pre.
Speaker B:Ikea.
Speaker B:But, you know, the table legs curve and they've got, like, things on it.
Speaker B:And they've got a dining table.
Speaker B:You know, nothing's from ikea, you know, and that's.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, obviously this is inside a house, but it's a bit like that with architecture.
Speaker B:Is your statement about got, you know, architects there to inspire.
Speaker B:Ultimately, buildings are so functional to us.
Speaker B:They need to keep us warm, dry.
Speaker B:But there's something quite deep in what you're saying about a building is a piece of art.
Speaker B:It can sit and change how people think and how they feel.
Speaker B:You know, the importance of this city looking good.
Speaker B:And when I'm building a building, whether that be in Bristol, London, wherever, there's an element at which that maybe investing in it looking amazing is valuable to society.
Speaker B:You're not just writing a check.
Speaker A:Definitely.
Speaker A:I mean, look, when every time you see London, like being published or visit London in other parts of the world, the images of London, most of it, are of their buildings.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:You know, you always see the gherkin.
Speaker B:Yes, you would see the gherkin.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Then you have the, you know, Tower Bridge, you know, all of the Westminster.
Speaker B:It's what defines it.
Speaker B:It's actually, it's always this.
Speaker B:And actually, if you go to Kolkata in India, they had a thing that they will try to look like London with this sort of pictures of, you know, they were like, this is what the skyline needs to look like.
Speaker B:And I was like, oh, I'm amazed.
Speaker B:That's aspirational.
Speaker B:You know, I thought it was all about skyscrapers, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But I think it's.
Speaker A:It's more than that, you know, because you.
Speaker A:You could never be Londoner.
Speaker A:I think the interesting part of working in different parts of the world is really understanding the DNA of that place and in the sense of thinking that good architecture costs more.
Speaker A:I wouldn't agree.
Speaker A:Because you need to be more smart in terms of the resources or the material use.
Speaker A:For example, if you're doing a building in London, you know, you can do a beautiful building with, you know, cheap materials, reclaimed brick, for example, and that could be super lovely.
Speaker A:It could be interesting and had a lot, you know, a lot of personality.
Speaker A:So I think it's not because in some of our projects that we don't do, like typical buildings also, some of them, you know, we try to challenge always the typology.
Speaker A:If we're doing a school, we're doing a school that can turn into a community center and a public park for that community.
Speaker A:If we're doing an institutional building for a.
Speaker A:For a football club, we're creating more, much more than a building.
Speaker A:We're creating a community hub, you know, that creates these.
Speaker B:And that space.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:That's like added value that you bring to the client.
Speaker A:And actually the best thing that you can get back from it is like the client saying, really, that public space that we didn't have it in the brief or at the beginning, that actually that program is the soul of the building, of the community, of the people working there.
Speaker B:It's hard to persuade people sometimes.
Speaker A:Yes, but I mean, I think.
Speaker A:Because your track record really needs to speak for itself.
Speaker A:So if you say we have this idea and this worked, you know, then it's, it's better to.
Speaker A:You have, you know, more to your advantage.
Speaker B:So all of this, that's effectively the sort of Madeleine brand that I'm buying you to.
Speaker B:That you don't.
Speaker B:You don't come to us and ask me for a box.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker B:You know, and.
Speaker A:And I mean, it's, it's, it's because it's not about the box, you know, and I think the clients now understand that it's not about the building, it's about the people that use the box.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:You know?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:So that's back to.
Speaker B:It's about the humans.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's about the humans.
Speaker B:It's about the humans and focusing.
Speaker B:Focusing on a space that they appreciate, enjoy, use is functional flows, you know.
Speaker A:And it doesn't need to be more expensive.
Speaker A:I think the notion that good architecture is more expensive, I mean, I don't agree with that in the sense that it needs to be, you know, it needs to be smart for the client, but for the people that use it as well.
Speaker A:And this is just to be mindful about the resourcing of the materials you're using.
Speaker A:They need to be local.
Speaker A:Everything needs to be more efficient.
Speaker A:And really pick where you believe that the spots or places or spaces that would give a little bit of a better quality to the people that are working on that building or living.
Speaker A:For example.
Speaker A:I can mention a school that I'm really excited about because it's the first school we.
Speaker A:We're doing in our history.
Speaker A:87 years.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Where have you been?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I believe education is probably, you know, one of the least interesting buildings.
Speaker A:That's true.
Speaker B:Very functional.
Speaker B:Often.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Super functional.
Speaker A:Repetition.
Speaker A:I mean, there's no place of creativity on those buildings.
Speaker B:I mean, how many people listening to this went to school with buildings that were supposed to be temporary that ended up there for 70 years?
Speaker A:You know, 100%.
Speaker A:And, you know, you always have these big blocks, you know, and then you have an open courtyard, and you're always within fences.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:You're within walls.
Speaker A:It's almost like you're in jail.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:It feels like you're.
Speaker A:You're captive.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And so we started to really digest these problems and how we could come up with a Solution.
Speaker A:So that specific project was sitting in a suburban area where we had a lot of housing.
Speaker A:So it wasn't in the middle of a city, it was on the outskirts.
Speaker A:And what we start to understand is actually they didn't have any public spaces.
Speaker A:All the housing units around the plot of land that we were assigned to do the school.
Speaker A:But all of these families were going to send their kids.
Speaker A:So the idea was, okay, what more can we give to that community?
Speaker A:So that school becomes a community center, an open space, a public park, you know, because schools are from nine to three or eight from three.
Speaker A:So then it opens up to the, to the whole community and obviously on, on the weekends.
Speaker A:And I believe the typology of, of schools are one of the better equipped in terms of interest infrastructure.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And there's also something peaceful about it.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean in, in Trinidad where my father in law is a professor, you know, they grew up on Sinal Augustine, which is a big university, but it's also a park and it's one of the few areas you can walk around in Trinidad that's sort of safe and stuff.
Speaker B:But it's almost like it's quite a lot of crime in Trinidad.
Speaker B:But since I got, when I was there was more like almost everybody respects educational, everyone respects sort of, you know, there's, there's economic.
Speaker B:It's like, you know, if you had a park that didn't have kids in it or sort of didn't allow kids, then what would that bring?
Speaker B:You know what I mean?
Speaker B:Definitely the wrong thing maybe, you know, and I mean also the thing, you know, we touched on it before, but I think it's really interesting is that, you know that you're not designing a building, you're designing something for humans.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah, and I think, you know, nowadays all of us need to talk about sustainability.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So if you're going to do a building, it needs to give more, you know, than just one single purpose.
Speaker A:It needs to serve multiple purpose rather.
Speaker B:Than it's got a wind turbine on the roof.
Speaker B:It's more make the, make it useful or make it use, usable all the time.
Speaker A:All the time.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because you cannot do a building and just be used half of the time.
Speaker A:And it's too, you know, you need to activate those buildings.
Speaker B:And now a quick word from our sponsor.
Speaker B:Business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ori Clark.
Speaker B: ancial and legal advice since: Speaker B:You can find us@oriclark.com Ory is spelled O U R Y Before we press on just a Quick reminder to come say hi on whatever social platform you like.
Speaker B:We're pretty much on all of them.
Speaker B:Just search for wblondon.
Speaker B:Do you think Mexican architects, architect or architectural firm brings something special to the global stage somehow?
Speaker A:I think so.
Speaker A:I definitely think so and that's why I made the decision to come here.
Speaker B:Is that to do with Sorte Maddalena or is that to do with Mexican culture or.
Speaker A:No, I think, I mean you cannot separate Mexican culture from sort of.
Speaker A:I mean really.
Speaker A:I mean it's definitely part of our identity and our history and I think Mexico has lots of things to offer.
Speaker A:It's because I think there's definitely a richness to the culture.
Speaker A:I mean the pre Hispanic history, the colonial and then now the modern Mexico and that, you know, mixed of all of these things happening in between.
Speaker B:It's fascinating.
Speaker B:Mexico.
Speaker B:And actually we just know so little about it in Britain.
Speaker B:It's almost not part of our history so much.
Speaker B:You know, it was part of Spanish history.
Speaker A:And I think you should go to the National Gallery actually.
Speaker A:There's Mexico.
Speaker A:No, here.
Speaker A:Yeah, in London because there's an exhibition by Jose Maria Velasco as this amazing landscape artist, painter.
Speaker A:Incredible.
Speaker A:And you can definitely catch a glimpse of, you know, just Mexico.
Speaker B:Well, it's sort of the meeting of this sort of two world meeting of three worlds, isn't it?
Speaker B:You've got this sort of European influence, you've got this sort of massive North American influence, you know, and then you've got the South American influence.
Speaker B:That's just sort of like.
Speaker A:It's crazy.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I mean I always joke about this fact that when the Aztecs, you know, because the myth is that they, they were for an eagle eating a snake on top of a nopal.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:From a cactus.
Speaker B:They were looking for an eagle eating.
Speaker A:A snake on top of a cactus.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So that's a mythological idea.
Speaker A:And they found that in an island in the middle of a lake in a volcano surrounded area, you know, with.
Speaker B:Oh, they found this artifact.
Speaker A:Yeah, they eagle.
Speaker A:You know, that's the mythology.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:But the, you know, it's just that it's crazy because there are earthquakes, you have like 60 volcanoes, you have, you know, flooding.
Speaker A:I mean it's probably the worst place that you can think about establishing a few cities.
Speaker A:Civilization, man.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean London, they established it because it was the most narrow part of the river.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And, and they, they built it.
Speaker B:Yeah, we've got the Romans, I think to thank for London.
Speaker B:And it's a, it's a lucky City, like, it's sort of fortuitously placed on some levels.
Speaker B:I mean, I find, like, what you're talking about is mad.
Speaker B:When you look at the map, the amount of cities that live in, like, massive danger zones, you know, it's crazy.
Speaker B:You wouldn't, you wouldn't plan it there.
Speaker B:But the thing is, they build the city and they think this is going well.
Speaker B:You know, 50 years later, there's an enormous earthquake and they're like, oh, bloody hell.
Speaker B:You know, might have got the placing wrong.
Speaker B:And what's it like?
Speaker B:You know, I'm a third generation in a family business.
Speaker B:How do you find it?
Speaker A:It, I mean, it's, it's definitely been an amazing experience up to date.
Speaker A:And I mean, I, I believe, you know, my, my grandfather really, you know, laid the foundations.
Speaker A:And then my father, I think it's, he's a super special person.
Speaker A:I, I, we admire him a lot, and I think his education to us was always, like, so easy in many ways in the sense of, you know, you do what you think you want to do and I'll be supporting you.
Speaker A:So I think that's the best way to really, you know, nurture a third generation.
Speaker B:Do you feel the shadow of your dad or your grandfather?
Speaker B:Do you feel it?
Speaker B:You know, some people I don't, but someone asked me this the other day who's in a family business, saying, do you, do you feel in the shadow?
Speaker A:No, not really, actually, because my father had the same question asked to him, you know, because my grandfather was an amazing architect, and then, well, my father is an amazing architect, and they always ask those questions.
Speaker A:But really, I found it super odd because I've never even feel like anything like it.
Speaker A:You know, I don't feel really any pressure, actually.
Speaker A:I think we are in an amazing position, you know, as a third generation and with my two brothers and myself, you know, leading the business has been incredible.
Speaker A:I think everybody has found their, what they're good at, and I think we've been doing a really interesting team.
Speaker B:It was curious when I was asked that question because I had to think about, I was saying, no, I've never been made to feel like that, but maybe a bit like you.
Speaker B:My dad's never made me feel bad about what I do.
Speaker B:You know, I didn't want to join the business, but I had to sort of think about it because I was like, like, no.
Speaker B:But he's always been, he's always been very supportive and very complimentary.
Speaker B:He's not being like, you know, you're not good at this or something, but I don't know.
Speaker B:I think, I think there's, there's different elements to that.
Speaker B:I mean, you know, the old stories, though, the third generation is supposed to mess it up.
Speaker B:Are you aware of this?
Speaker B:You know, clogs to clogs and, you know, I've heard of that, yeah.
Speaker B:Are you.
Speaker B:We've just had the fourth generation join here, so I don't know whether that means we're out the woodwork.
Speaker A:Definitely, I think.
Speaker B:So, Andy, what's been the most biggest challenge, expanding internationally, do you think?
Speaker A:I mean, because it's something super personal, architecture.
Speaker A:And what Sordoma Eleno is, it's really, you know, it's our family's work, so I want to keep it personal.
Speaker A:And having two different locations, it's definitely a challenge.
Speaker B:Because this is the first time the family have expanded outside of expansion.
Speaker A:Yes, that's correct.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker A:And so, yeah, working in two time zones, it's, it's complicated.
Speaker A:And, you know, I, I, I still develop the design and concept for, for the Mexican office as well.
Speaker A:So, you know, it's, it's kind of crazy with a new baby.
Speaker B:And meanwhile, you're doing work in the Middle East.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:That's a lot of what you've been doing.
Speaker B:Everybody's doing stuff in the Middle East.
Speaker B:What's it like doing architecture in the Middle East?
Speaker A:I mean, I, I think it's in many ways they, they are, are trying to get many things right, and I think in many ways they are going in the right direction.
Speaker A:I mean, they have been involved with the best minds in architecture and in urban design, and that definitely helps.
Speaker A:And, Well, I think the challenge there is, as international architects, we really need to understand where are we doing buildings.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So we need to understand the DNA, because Riyadh, it's not London or Dubai, it's not London needs to have its own character.
Speaker A:And that's what people, you know, drives people to, to visit or to go as tourist tourists.
Speaker A:Well, or tax strategies.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's curious, given architecture is such.
Speaker B:I'm trying not to get sidetracked, but, yeah, given architecture is art, it's an expression.
Speaker B:You come from Mexico.
Speaker B:This is the place that, you know, for generations you've been, you know, from and heavily involved.
Speaker B:Why would they choose someone from overseas who maybe doesn't know much about the Middle east or Riyadh or wherever is it is the first thing you then have to do is really learn about the place.
Speaker B:Is that the first.
Speaker B:You just get on the plane and sit and learn you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, and research and, And.
Speaker A:And talking to the people that actually live there and have lived there for all their lives.
Speaker A:I mean, we were involved in a competition in.
Speaker A:In Scandinavia, and the first thing was just, let's interview a person from Finland.
Speaker A:You know, it's like, please tell me your experience living.
Speaker B:Were they chatty?
Speaker B:They can't.
Speaker B:They're not always chatty.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Amazing.
Speaker A:Laura.
Speaker A:She's a.
Speaker A:She's a.
Speaker A:She's a great friend.
Speaker A:And yeah, I mean it, because all of that really gives you the clues onto what the project should be.
Speaker A:Because we cannot think ourselves as sculptures or as painters, you know, because their works of art are, you know, works of art that are.
Speaker A:That can be sitting in an amazing flat in London or in a house in Italy or, you know, you can have a sculpture anywhere.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:But the building, that's what I find quite interesting.
Speaker A:It needs to sit where it needs to sit.
Speaker A:Can't move, man.
Speaker A:But it needs to speak about the place.
Speaker A:And that's why I'm fascinated by history.
Speaker A:Because every single time you go to these little towns in Italy or these little places, there's a lot of information if you look.
Speaker A:Yeah, there's a lot of information.
Speaker A:And it's all about just making the right decisions.
Speaker A:Sometimes as architects, we overcomplicate our thought process because we want to become more technical or try to innovate, when really, for me, innovation is like understanding the place, the things that are of that place, and then maybe bringing them a little bit a step further.
Speaker B:Do you find you sort of have these clicks in your head?
Speaker A:Okay, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:So everything starts to make sense.
Speaker A:So it's part of the process.
Speaker A:And sometimes you take two steps forward, you then step one step back.
Speaker A:And that's the process that I'm really interested in.
Speaker A:And that's why, you know, we.
Speaker A:We now have a really strong research area in the studio.
Speaker A:Because I think as good architects, you need to take seriously, you know, all the research, the context, and not just the superficial, superficial stuff, but really in depth, you know, and that's because that's how people, you know, the appropriation of a building is when they feel that identified to it, you know, so.
Speaker A:So acting in different places, it's.
Speaker A:It's definitely a challenge.
Speaker A:No, because if not, if it's not your culture, then you need to.
Speaker A:Someone to guide you.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:I mean, it.
Speaker B:It makes me think of a really stupid, annoying question, but it's an interesting one to just pose.
Speaker B:Is.
Speaker B:Is because it's like.
Speaker B:It's just so ubiquitous.
Speaker B:But AI, what's AI going to, Is AI going to do something to architecture?
Speaker A:You know, I think it's doing it already really in many ways.
Speaker A:As I've said, architecture is art and AI, it's a computer that process images.
Speaker A:Personally speaking, because I could not generalize my ideas to the general architecture world.
Speaker A:But for me, AI is architecture of images, not about spaces really.
Speaker B:And give me some ideas.
Speaker B:Would you almost say to AI, here's some inputs and some stuff generate random things or.
Speaker A:Yeah, because you know, the computer has this script that takes all of these different images from the web that are pre existing images and then just mixes it and puts it together and gives you a result.
Speaker A:And that's why I think the research process, all of that, the human side is the really thing that separates good architects from great architects.
Speaker A:Because today I believe with AI, everybody can do a beautiful building that looks nice, but I think a building that really creates change to a community or a specific place, that's where you want to play.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And back to this sort of, you design it around humans and maybe it's worth going the extra mile to not be too utilitarian about it and try and make it multifunctional and try and make it speak to people too.
Speaker B:These things are very valuable.
Speaker B:Have you got a long term vision plan, long term thing you want to achieve?
Speaker A:Definitely.
Speaker A:To consolidate sort of Maleno as a Mexican firm internationally put you on the global stage.
Speaker B:Like, like you mentioned Norman Foster did something in Mexico.
Speaker B:So is Norman Foster like globally known?
Speaker B:Is it?
Speaker A:Yes, of course.
Speaker B:Is it?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I wouldn't have a sense.
Speaker B:I know it's known here, but you know.
Speaker A:No, no, it's good.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think it's, it's amazing what they do at Fosters.
Speaker A:It's, it's incredible.
Speaker A:And yeah, I mean I think for us at sort of, I mean it's, we want to do projects elsewhere.
Speaker A:You know, that's, that's the ambition and it's not a business decision, you know, it's, it's just that it's truly our passion.
Speaker A:You know, we love to do architecture and that's what really motivates me to.
Speaker A:Because architecture is as all businesses is complicated.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It's, you know, it's, it's quite specific architecture.
Speaker B:You most satisfied when you see the finished building?
Speaker B:Or is it like you see the finished building?
Speaker B:You're like, damn it, I should have put that wall over there.
Speaker A:And by that time I'm already seeing a couple of others projects that I'm excited.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, but.
Speaker A:But no, I think I'm definitely excited.
Speaker A:And I have learned, you know, in.
Speaker A:In time to, to love every single part of the process.
Speaker A:Because at the beginning, I was super inclined into the beginning of the process.
Speaker A:The concept, the research, you know, almost when you have that blank page, but that's never a blank page.
Speaker A:You know, you have all of this information.
Speaker A:You know, you have the culture, you have the, the history, the memory, you have the materials, you have the weather, you have the.
Speaker B:You know, what I love is, and you obviously have the right mind for it, is the, the human brain.
Speaker B:The way you just keep giving it bits of information and this idea just starts forming in your head and then it's sort of like that's probably all you can see.
Speaker B:And then you go see the client and they're like, no, I want a purple basement or something.
Speaker B:You're like, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker A:And you get, like, emotionally attached to the, to the proposal.
Speaker B:Please.
Speaker B:Oh, that's hard.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Yeah, because at the end of the day, it's, it's, it's not our job.
Speaker A:It's, you know, it's, it's definitely something that we love to do as architects.
Speaker A:Because you need to love it because it's, it's.
Speaker A:It's hard.
Speaker A:Super hard.
Speaker B:And you've got to fight for your idea to keep it alive, I imagine, as it starts going through the stages.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think that's one.
Speaker A:You know, when I was, you know, at school, you know, I really fought for my ideas because I thought, I will.
Speaker A:I was always right.
Speaker A:But then in times, sometimes the client is right.
Speaker A:And that's interesting because, you know, we're not this isolated, independent artists that are working, you know, in this, like, surreal world.
Speaker A:We have clients, we have people that we need to respond to and that actually we need to talk to them because, I mean, they are doing a huge investment on the building many, many times is, you know, it's their family home that they're going to spend all their lives there.
Speaker A:So sometimes it needs to be more about the people than, you know, the idea of architecture as this super technical object.
Speaker B:Beautiful ideas are very possessive.
Speaker B:I mean, I, you know, I work with my father and we would come, you know, I'd learned this from him.
Speaker B:I remember saying to him years ago, it's like when that thing, you give your brain a load of information, it does its thing.
Speaker B:It comes up with something.
Speaker B:It's really hard if someone else goes, no, it should be like this.
Speaker B:It's like, no, no.
Speaker B:Like, it's like this, you know, but it's trying to take someone on that journey, isn't it?
Speaker B:You know, it's like, it's, it's.
Speaker B:I don't know because someone say to me, isn't that ego?
Speaker B:And I was like, no, I think there's something very possessive about ideas.
Speaker B:I think if you have the kind of brain that likes coming up with ideas, which you must do, you know, and I certainly relate to then, then someone telling you that it should be something else is really hard to program in.
Speaker B:But like you say with maturity, feedback of like, you know, just makes you reprocess it.
Speaker A:Definitely.
Speaker A:And, and you know that saying that they say that, you know, good architecture is a good client or good clients good architecture, I mean that's, you know, and he understands or she understands the value in architecture, you know, because I think nowadays to be an architect, you need to be much more than just an artist.
Speaker A:You need to understand how the world works.
Speaker A:You know, you need to absorb all the information that you can get.
Speaker A:Because if you're doing an office building for a developer, you know, and you're saying, okay, I want to create 20% extra area for communal spaces where people can relax, okay, that, that's going to cost a lot.
Speaker A:But what if that 20% is going to generate another income that is actually a co working space that is going to be extended to everyone.
Speaker A:Everyone.
Speaker B:What's your advice to work with an architect?
Speaker B:Because certainly the frustration a lot of people, you know, I've seen it myself too, is you go to someone, they draw a picture, then you say how much?
Speaker B:They don't know how much it's going to cost.
Speaker B:And then you sort of go on this circle.
Speaker B:We get the engineers in, they design it, they come back, it's going to cost 20 billion.
Speaker B:You're like, no, my budget's 2 million.
Speaker B:And you just, I mean, you're an architect.
Speaker B:What's your advice to someone who's coming to work with an architect, how to approach it?
Speaker A:Yeah, I think you always need to be clear on, on, on, on your ideas.
Speaker A:It doesn't need to be a fully formed idea like a building or how that building.
Speaker B:But say the idea is, I need an office, it needs to fit 100 people in, whatever.
Speaker A:Yeah, you need to come up with a budget, right?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you need to say to the architect, okay, this is my budget.
Speaker A:And actually when we have been working on a budget, and that's 99% of.
Speaker B:The time, but you have within your team the engineers and people to understand, yes, okay, so you are multidisciplined team, are you?
Speaker A:Yes, yes.
Speaker B:Ah, okay.
Speaker B:You know, here, you know, it's not integral integrated.
Speaker B:Here you'll go to an architect, they won't know.
Speaker B:You go around, you find an engineer.
Speaker A:No, we have in house engineers, but if we want something more sophisticated, we work with, you know, consultants, sub consultants.
Speaker B:But you have internal ones.
Speaker B:You sit in the office and go, you can't do that, John.
Speaker A:Yes, but as a good architect you need to know these things before you talk to the engineer.
Speaker A:So that's good architecture.
Speaker A:When you're thinking about an idea of creating this beautiful large span to create a double height space with lots of light and flexibility, you need to understand the technicality.
Speaker A:Because if you see the greatest architects of our time are the ones that have mastered engineering and architecture.
Speaker A:Yeah, it must, because it makes sense.
Speaker A:I mean it's not just doing a beautiful building and then talking to the engineer.
Speaker B:And I've learned over time that you need that tension too, that if it was all engineering led, you'd get a boring box all the time.
Speaker B:Must make it solid.
Speaker B:So the architects needed to push the engineer to say, well, I want it like that, that, you know, it's.
Speaker B:The Sydney Opera House is always an example, isn't it?
Speaker B:Because they drew this picture of this boat and it was just, you know, I went to an exhibit because my father in law's a civil engineer.
Speaker B:He took me to, there was a VA exhibition about how they built it and stuff.
Speaker B:And it, he just said, you know, from an engineering perspective, what they did at the time was just unreal.
Speaker B:It was totally different.
Speaker B:What do you think the biggest problem is with architectural?
Speaker B:You know, with, with the industry at the moment?
Speaker A:I, I don't like the politics around it.
Speaker B:The politics?
Speaker A:Yeah, the politics.
Speaker A:And I think, think it's, you know, I think our work needs to speak for itself.
Speaker A:You know, it's, it's all about doing good architecture.
Speaker A:You know, everything that it's surrounding that.
Speaker A:I, I'm not so good at it.
Speaker B:I would say effectively you want to get on and do great stuff.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then what, what, what was an example of the sort of the politics of the bullshit ego is.
Speaker A:It's, it's, it's in architecture, it's, it's huge.
Speaker A:No, and I think, you know, we, we need to, to go back in many ways to the roots of, of the purpose.
Speaker A:I mean we are almost like, you know, people that we are, we are here to, to help.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:I think it's, it's almost Like a social practice or profession.
Speaker B:Plus ego usually stems from insecurity.
Speaker B:So I guess one of the benefits you, or indeed, in a way myself, working in this family business is, you know, hopefully, you know, you don't feel insecure as sort of madeleine, you know, it's like, you know, you come from a family of architects, you know, this is sort of part of your DNA, so hopefully that allows you to.
Speaker B:Not when I mean it.
Speaker B:We've all got ego and ego is important, but ego displays itself badly often if you're trying to prove yourself, you know, but there's a little bit, you know, you're in London now, you're doing it in the Middle east.
Speaker B:That's a big step for the business, you know, stepping out into that international world.
Speaker B:So, you know, I guess, I guess the Middle east is interesting because it's a little more, and excuse me, people in the Middle East a bit more of a blank sheet.
Speaker B:It's a sort of, it's, you know, evolving, isn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah, Land of opportunities.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, but did you get involved?
Speaker B:I mean, what's happening with Neo and stuff?
Speaker B:Just to finish up on that.
Speaker B:Is that all going ahead still?
Speaker B:And you know, I think they were.
Speaker A:Restructuring, that's what I heard.
Speaker B:I mean, I mean, the pictures were like things from outer space.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I don't, you know, I don't know, drawing the pictures, but they're just incredible, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, it's pretty ambitious what they're trying to do in Neoman and specifically the line, right?
Speaker B:It's the line, yeah.
Speaker B:What is the line?
Speaker A:It's like that 174 kilometer building in the desert.
Speaker B:174 kilometer building.
Speaker A:It's like 500 meters tall by 200.
Speaker B:Wide and it's 170 kilometers long.
Speaker B:It can't be 170.
Speaker A:That's the idea.
Speaker A:I mean, but they're starting with, I believe, like just a couple of kilometers.
Speaker A:Yeah, a couple, Just like three point.
Speaker B:Yeah, well, if I was in that meeting, I'd suggest the same.
Speaker B:I was like, lovely idea, Roger, but can we just, can we go for a couple of kilometers first and then let's, let's have a chat about it, shall we?
Speaker B:Okay, brilliant.
Speaker A:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:I think they're going ahead.
Speaker A:I don't really know much about the.
Speaker B:Project, but if you haven't looked at the pictures, people, I mean, do it like something out there, that spaceship from Mars, you know, it's something otherworldly.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that tells you the ambition of, of, of that country now it's.
Speaker B:Do you know what?
Speaker B:Because it's a bit like sport they're using.
Speaker B:Is that how their buildings are, is what people see, like you say, the skyline of London, the skyline of Dubai.
Speaker B:You always see the Thingy Tower, you know, and it's sort of.
Speaker B:That speaks to people in terms of how they feel when they're in the city and stuff.
Speaker B:You know, you can't.
Speaker B:You can't click your fingers like Mexico City and become Mexico City or London.
Speaker B:That's got a lot of history.
Speaker A:Oh, you need to be you.
Speaker B:You need to be you.
Speaker A:And I think that would be my advice to any architect.
Speaker A:Be you.
Speaker A:Be you.
Speaker A:Because that's your secret weapon.
Speaker B:Or be them in a way.
Speaker A:No, in the sense of, I believe right now, because we are, you know, every single day we are in, in touch with, you know, Pinterest.
Speaker A:You have all of these architectural platforms.
Speaker A:You're always looking at other architects work, so it tends to get confusing.
Speaker A:And that's why you need to be you.
Speaker A:You need to really reflect on your aspirations as an artist and really understand what you like.
Speaker A:And what do you want to take away from architecture?
Speaker A:Because I think the problem now is that everybody's doing a little bit of the same, I guess.
Speaker A:And I think the secret weapon to anybody as an artist is like really look inside of you and say, okay, what has been your experience?
Speaker A:What's your background?
Speaker A:In my case, it's from Mexico, and I have that specific background.
Speaker A:And I think that's something that actually makes you different.
Speaker A:And for me, being here as a Mexican architecture studio, that is our secret weapon.
Speaker A:That we are different because of where we come from.
Speaker A:And that gives us, us sort of an edge.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Because we see things differently.
Speaker A:And really understanding the local aspect, then you can produce something interesting that's really interesting.
Speaker B:That's brilliant.
Speaker B:What's the best advice you've ever been given?
Speaker A:Well, this advice was by my father and is that you need to stay hungry and you need to stay, you know, I can say it in Spanish because it's like slang.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Siempre no vilero.
Speaker A:And what does that mean?
Speaker A:Is that, you know, know when you're a bull fighter.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:So the amateurs of the bull fighting, you know, are called novieto.
Speaker A:So is always be an amateur.
Speaker B:Always be the amateur of the bull fighting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like always stay hungry.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:And, you know, work doesn't come knocking to your door.
Speaker A:You go out and find it.
Speaker B:That's great advice.
Speaker B:That's great advice.
Speaker B:Any tips for anyone?
Speaker B:If you Know that they're coming to build their business in London or, you know, trying to be, trying to be an entre.
Speaker B:Other tips you'd share.
Speaker A:I think it's, it's just navigating the ups and downs.
Speaker A:You know, it's, it's been, you know, a couple of years now that we started with this idea of opening the London studio.
Speaker B:Oh.
Speaker B:And the family were like, oh, he's off.
Speaker B:He's been trying to get out of Mexico for years, you know.
Speaker B:Oh, he's on about London again.
Speaker A:But I think it's, it's just, just you need to do it preferably earlier.
Speaker B:Than when your wife's heavily pregnant.
Speaker A:Yeah, that just added an extra layer of complexity to my situation, you know.
Speaker B:He arrived in London immediately, had a baby, started a business with 50 people in it and wasn't sure why.
Speaker B:He was quite stressed out, you know.
Speaker A:Yeah, man, definitely.
Speaker A:But I think it's, it's just a matter of doing it because you're going to have mistakes and I think if you just keep at it.
Speaker A:And what I find that it's the most important thing is to be passionate about what you are doing.
Speaker A:Because what's the end goal of what you're doing?
Speaker A:You know, is it just an economic situation or.
Speaker A:It's something that you love to do every single day and that brings you joy, you know, because at the end of the day, yeah, I'm having these terrible meetings, you know, with check in cash flows, tax advice with you and those are the most fun.
Speaker A:But, but yeah, I mean, but then I have these, these, these moments where now I'm, you know, doing buildings and designing ideas and all of this.
Speaker A:And you know, you're, you're always going to need to put through those bad moments and good moments when you're starting up.
Speaker A:I mean, and in Mexico it has been a smooth ride for us.
Speaker A:Well, not a smooth ride as a general their generation, but the platform was there.
Speaker A:Obviously.
Speaker A:I think we've done great on that platform, but here it's completely, completely different.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Nothing is given and you need to make a name for yourself.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So you need to keep hungry, you need to keep knocking doors and hopefully someone will answer.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:Well, Fernando, I think you've been absolutely brilliant.
Speaker B:You know, if people want to learn more about you, where do they go?
Speaker B:Sodomadeleno.com or.
Speaker A:Yeah, sordomaleno.com or, you know, Instagram, Sort of the same thing.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Very nice.
Speaker B:Thank you very much.
Speaker B:Thank you, Dee.
Speaker B:Oh, my dog's not here.
Speaker B:How very how very strange.
Speaker B:So there you have it.
Speaker B:That was this week's episode of Business Without.
Speaker B:And we will be back next Wednesday.
Speaker B:Until then, let's Ciao.
Speaker A:Sam.
